Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips • Hacker News Board

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#251

Post by chmod600 » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #227

Grim-444 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that how it's supposed to work? The state is supposed to pass laws that represent the will of its constituents. If the majority of the people living in the state are opposed to such a program, then they shouldn't have such a program. The scope of the federal government is supposed to be for coordinating cross-state stuff that states alone can't decide for themselves.

If we wanted local control then local towns/cities and counties would have the most power in our system. Instead things are reversed so smaller units of government have progressively less power. This makes sense because we want people to freely move around the country without encountering wildly different systems in every small town.

The name of our country is the United States. The state was intended as the primary unit of general government.

Lots of land is outside of cities, and that can't be left ungoverned. And many counties have very few people, which make a lot of government functions impractical or insufficient.

So states are still a reasonable unit after 250 years.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#252

Post by klodolph » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #191

djur wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A substantial number of those 52 senators oppose free school meals not because they're "too expensive" but because the policy itself (the government giving free food to children) is something they object to on ideological grounds. A much smaller subset of that group also oppose the government giving free stuff to industry, but in either case the cost is not what they're concerned about.

I’m all for healthy free lunches for poor kids. Is it really necessary to give free meals to all Palo Alto kids independent of financial status? https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2022/06/19/palo-alto-uni...

There's an added cost if you want to sort through which kids qualify and which kids don't. Trying to filter kids out also reduces the program's reach for kids which do qualify for various reasons.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#253

Post by beachtaxidriver » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #191

djur wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A substantial number of those 52 senators oppose free school meals not because they're "too expensive" but because the policy itself (the government giving free food to children) is something they object to on ideological grounds. A much smaller subset of that group also oppose the government giving free stuff to industry, but in either case the cost is not what they're concerned about.

I’m all for healthy free lunches for poor kids. Is it really necessary to give free meals to all Palo Alto kids independent of financial status? https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2022/06/19/palo-alto-uni...

When middle class people use a government service, the quality goes up.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#254

Post by fleddr » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

Fairly cynical comments on this thread, many trying to uphold American values like "free market", "protectionism is bad", "what about the consumer", "not from my tax money".

I find those remarks pretty naive. Every major power block heavily subsidizes strategic industries, now and forever. It's in no way new or remarkable, nor does it violate some principle. Most of the above concepts are pure fiction.

Semiconductors are not a "free market" in any ordinary sense. It costs tens of billions to enter the market and you'll buy an ASML machine, speaking of dependencies.

It's pretty obvious that this is in response to geopolitical instability. Being geo locked and this not really being a free market at all justify the "unusual" decision.

As is stands, food, energy, and yes...also semiconductors are foundational to a modern digital society. And they're interconnected, without semiconductors you won't have food either.

If you want to know what happens when semiconductors dry up, watch modern Russia. Arguably it's hard to do because of all the propaganda, but pretty much every domestic industry is falling apart, and therefore society falls apart.

Bottom line, don't be naive. Sure it sucks to give rich companies even more money but if that's what it takes, so be it. Also, rich is just one side of the coin, the other is that they spear-headed the information revolution.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#255

Post by dwiel » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #193

I can't help but conclude that this is too little too late. R&D isn't the problem, which is what this bill seems more focused on. The ability to produce affordable chips domestically at affordable prices is the actual problem. North America's first priority isn't access to bleeding edge tech. > The bill also includes about $100 billion in authorizations over five years for programs such as expanding the National Scie…

I've received money from the NSF SBIR grant program and know another half a dozen others who have as well, and while there is certainly a process, it isn't too bad. All the people I know who have received them are at startups and small companies. That said, the NSF does more than just SBIR and I can't speak to any of that.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#256

Post by maerF0x0 » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

01100011 wrote: post #16

Such a monumental scam and a gross theft from taxpayers. Companies making billions of dollars in profits don't need free money. I could be onboard with a subsidized loan, but handouts are not needed. FWIW, I work at a company that stands to benefit from this bill. Does the US need to secure reliable semiconductor supply chains free of China? Sure. This is not the most cost effective way to do it.

I'd like to see a matching consumer side tax. Basically forced on shoring and user pay taxation (instead of taxing my grandma who uses about 0 chips, lol more than amazon who uses millions/billions of chips but pays next to no taxes)

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#257

Post by jen20 » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #75

pm90 wrote: post #20

WaPo article, which has more details about the bill and less details about what different “personalities” are saying: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/07/27/senate-ch... . Overall, it looks great. We absolutely need to fund more semiconductor manufacturing. Losing that ability to China/Taiwan was just a terrible strategic mistake. The US hasn’t lost this battle (over semiconductors) just yet. While curren…

>> We absolutely need to fund more semiconductor manufacturing. Losing that ability to China/Taiwan was just a terrible strategic mistake. The correct solution to that is tariffs. That would hurt us short term and should have been done long ago before it would have been a problem. This will add to the debt pile, so it will be with us for a long time.

Who do you think pays the cost of tariffs?

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#258

Post by Retric » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #251

Retric wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we wanted local control then local towns/cities and counties would have the most power in our system. Instead things are reversed so smaller units of government have progressively less power. This makes sense because we want people to freely move around the country without encountering wildly different systems in every small town.

The name of our country is the United States . The state was intended as the primary unit of general government. Lots of land is outside of cities, and that can't be left ungoverned. And many counties have very few people, which make a lot of government functions impractical or insufficient. So states are still a reasonable unit after 250 years.

Over 4 million Americans aren’t living in States. United States is a name, but it consists of more than just States.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#259

Post by cft » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #247

Someone1234 wrote: post #129

It should be noted that the US decided not to extend the universal free school meals program, because it was "too expensive" at $11B. They also stopped the expanded and early payment of family tax credits, causing a double-whammy hit to poor families (then pile on inflation/food prices, and gas prices). But $50B to large monopolistic companies isn't "too expensive," and we can afford that . Unfortunately 52 senators…

> It should be noted that the US decided not to extend the universal free school meals program, because it was "too expensive" at $11B. They also stopped the expanded and early payment of family tax credits, causing a double-whammy hit to poor families (then pile on inflation/food prices, and gas prices). But $50B to large monopolistic companies isn't "too expensive," and we can afford that. That's misleading framing…

No post body was provided.

Re: Senate passes bipartisan bill to subsidize U.S.-made semiconductor chips

#260

Post by listenman » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

thereare5lights wrote: post #211

theptip wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a shallow analysis. You can’t just look at the price tag, you need to think about the value too (more generally, the ROI). A $10 coffee can be too expensive while a $1000 MacBook is really cheap. I’m not making any particular claims about the free school meals program, just noting that this argument doesn’t hold water as it stands. Semiconductor manufacturing is of military and geopolitical significance so it…

> Semiconductor manufacturing is of military and geopolitical significance so it makes a lot of sense that the government is willing to spend big here. You expounded on the value of semiconductors but you didn't on the value of feeding children that would go hungry otherwise. This is why saying > This is a shallow analysis. rings hollow. The value of feeding the next generation of Americans and ensuring they do not g…

The next generation of Americans will grow up hungry if we cede the security of the very item at the heart of all of our infrastructure. The next generation won't have any equivalent electronic equipment from the post-WWII era, whilst living in a world that is based exclusively on semiconductors (consider the usage of semiconductors in medical equipment as well). This is certain death, and this kind of short-sighted belly aching is a problematic position to take when we're staring down the prospect of losing the entirety of our ability to sustain the infrastructure needed to keep anyone alive in the first place.