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Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

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Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#81

Post by cletus »

It honestly boggles my mind that people can't read things like these and see that it's "choice" here that's why Linux on the desktop is doomed to be nothing more than a niche product for us geeks.

Desktops succeed because they're consistent. Possibly the most important thing is to have a consistent API. X at this point is venerable. Nascent Linux desktops come complete with cruft. Lots of cruft.

Honestly I can understand why Canonical wants to start again (Wayland, Unity, etc). Even more honestly, I just don't see adoption of any Linux desktop going much above 1%.

I have a 6 core Xeon with 24GB of RAM on my desktop and Ubuntu still feels sluggish. Go down to 2 cores and 4GB of RAM and I'd have a better experience with either OSX or Win7.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#82

Post by muuh-gnu »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #64

I still can't understand why Canonical doesn't just put out a Gubuntu similar to Kubuntu, Xubuntu etc. That way, they can keep pushing Unity forward while making it reasonably easy for uses who prefer Gnome to choose that option. I know it's possible to get gnome running (I did it on my netbook, which is running 11.10 - my desktop is still on 10.10), but the method feels unnecessarily hacky.

> I still can't understand why Canonical doesn't just put out a Gubuntu

Because they guessed that not many users would switch to Unity if they can keep using a Gnome-2-like. But they _want_ them to switch to Unity so they have to basically force them by forcibly removing the Gnome-2 option.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#83

Post by old-gregg »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Personally I found it a bit snarky. By the same token I find that UI wars are the most vitriolic, after all they are the way you talk to the machine day in and day out. Screwing with that, screws with everything. I have found Ubuntu's strategy interesting because it seemed clear that while KDE was following general guidelines around Microsoft OSes to be more accessible, and Gnome was following general guidelines arou…

Great comment. But allow me to disagree on comparing Gnome 2 to OSX. In my opinion old Gnome was exactly what you're talking about: "driving off the road". It wasn't like Windows or OSX, it was its own thing, the best desktop environment, in my opinion. The only element reminiscent of OSX (only visually, not functionally) perhaps was the menu at the top.

Unity, on the other hand, is the exact replica of Gnome 3, just not as polished graphically. They both have this weird "buaaa mode" where you're typing instead of clicking on a shortcut, they both destroy virtual desktop functionality and if anything, they're basically cloning OSX bad habits: instead of switching between windows on Alt+Tab they're now switching between apps (across virtual desktops!).

So I would suggest that the opposite is happening. Instead of staying in the "new place" Ubuntu is basically trying to get on the road and follow OSX.

Frankly, I'm not even sure it's possible to "drive off teh road to a new place" when it comes to desktop UX without a significant change in hardware: we're still using basically the same computers as we did in late 80s, even the screen real estate hasn't improved much.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#84

Post by DanBC »

gerggerg wrote: post #26

Canonical is genuinely trying to make linux the most user friendly it's ever been and make it ready for real mass adoption. It's not going to be easy and not everyone is going to like every change but you can't get so down on them for trying so hard. Saying the solution is to go backwards is the same as telling canonical to just stop trying all together. There's no point in stagnating and sticking with gnome. New use…

> If you really care, get involved.

There's little chance to get involved with Unity. Shuttleworth has made it clear that he's playing his benevolent dictator card.

> Canonical is genuinely trying to make linux the most user friendly it's ever been and make it ready for real mass adoption.

Maybe. Unity is probably great for touch screen interfaces. Similar layouts have been tried on small screens - netbooks for example.

I guess the people with 2 huge monitors (and all the Linux tinkering that involves) aren't the people who need Unity; and they're probably already using something else. (Something entirely keyboard driven or minimal or whatever.)

> Write some code.

Yes, "show me the code" is a powerful message. Even if there's little room for involvement in Unity there are many other window managers and desktop environments that'd welcome people getting involved; whether that's with bug-fixing or feature implementing or language translations or documentation.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#85

Post by jonpaul »

cletus wrote: post #81

It honestly boggles my mind that people can't read things like these and see that it's "choice" here that's why Linux on the desktop is doomed to be nothing more than a niche product for us geeks. Desktops succeed because they're consistent. Possibly the most important thing is to have a consistent API. X at this point is venerable. Nascent Linux desktops come complete with cruft. Lots of cruft. Honestly I can unders…

Sincere meta question: do you have a SSD? I've found that any machine without a SSD feels sluggish after using a machine with one. I have a MBP with 8 GB ram and a 6 GB/s SATA III SSD... it screams past any machine that doesn't have a SSD.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#86

Post by drivebyacct2 »

cletus wrote: post #81

It honestly boggles my mind that people can't read things like these and see that it's "choice" here that's why Linux on the desktop is doomed to be nothing more than a niche product for us geeks. Desktops succeed because they're consistent. Possibly the most important thing is to have a consistent API. X at this point is venerable. Nascent Linux desktops come complete with cruft. Lots of cruft. Honestly I can unders…

I don't ever want Linux on the desktop to succeed then if I have to sacrifice choice. I'm thrilled with Ubuntu every day, and if I had to sacrifice any of the flexibiltiy and customization I enjoy... well, I'd just use OS X.

Also, I have no freaking idea how your Ubuntu feels sluggish. Being in Ubuntu on my Quad/8GB is vastly faster than being in Windows.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#87

Post by jcastro »

gcp wrote: post #72
ianb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you install gnome-shell, everything works quite well.

Not even close. I forgot which one gnome-shell is exactly, but the GNOME 3 fallback is broken with VirtualBox seamless mode, and the GNOME 2 (or was it GNOME3-pretending-to-be-GNOME2?) fallback has by default an entirely messed up panel. It's easy to waste a day trying all these alternatives to get something that works. I don't call that an easy-to-use distro. Particularly as it's a regression .

That's the fallback from GNOME.

The old "classic" panel look has been deprecated upstream, it doesn't really exist any more so I don't know what you're expecting Ubuntu to do in this case.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#88

Post by RyanMcGreal »

muuh-gnu wrote: post #82
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #64

I still can't understand why Canonical doesn't just put out a Gubuntu similar to Kubuntu, Xubuntu etc. That way, they can keep pushing Unity forward while making it reasonably easy for uses who prefer Gnome to choose that option. I know it's possible to get gnome running (I did it on my netbook, which is running 11.10 - my desktop is still on 10.10), but the method feels unnecessarily hacky.

> I still can't understand why Canonical doesn't just put out a Gubuntu Because they guessed that not many users would switch to Unity if they can keep using a Gnome-2-like. But they _want_ them to switch to Unity so they have to basically force them by forcibly removing the Gnome-2 option.

I thought the idea of Unity was to attract new users with a simple interface optimized for non-power users. There's no reason why such an approach has to alienate existing users who like having a more expressive interface.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#89

Post by keithpeter »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #86
cletus wrote: post #81

It honestly boggles my mind that people can't read things like these and see that it's "choice" here that's why Linux on the desktop is doomed to be nothing more than a niche product for us geeks. Desktops succeed because they're consistent. Possibly the most important thing is to have a consistent API. X at this point is venerable. Nascent Linux desktops come complete with cruft. Lots of cruft. Honestly I can unders…

I don't ever want Linux on the desktop to succeed then if I have to sacrifice choice. I'm thrilled with Ubuntu every day, and if I had to sacrifice any of the flexibiltiy and customization I enjoy... well, I'd just use OS X. Also, I have no freaking idea how your Ubuntu feels sluggish. Being in Ubuntu on my Quad/8GB is vastly faster than being in Windows.

cletus and drivebyacct2

I've discovered recently that its the video hardware and how that interacts with the precise (sic) choice of graphics driver that governs Unity speed.

cletus: you can test my hypothesis by logging in with the Unity 2d session and seeing if the UI becomes more responsive. Scaling (super-s) will be 'ragged' without 3d effects but should be faster.

drivebyacct2: what is your graphics card and what driver? I need a new desktop box soon myself...

I'm giving Unity a try and I have to admit its a little fussy and busy. My fallback is Debian with a tiling window manager (dwm) so I've been going in the 'menuless' direction for some time.

Re: Linux Mint: The new Ubuntu?

#90

Post by notatoad »

udp wrote: post #27

> it’s Ubuntu without someone else telling you what to do or taking the OS into a direction that you’re unwilling to follow Debian, anyone?

the prevailing theme in most comments regarding mint i've seen on reddit and various blogs is that people like mint because it's easy. one of mint's big selling points is that they include the ubuntu-restricted-extras package by default, rather than making people install it.

if people can't install a single package, i don't think debian is for them.

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