Under anesthesia, where do our minds go? • Hacker News Board

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#211

Post by a9h74j » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:01 PM UTC

ehecatl42 wrote: post #189

bheadmaster wrote: post #41

I think that consciousness (or rather the feeling of consciousness) is very related to continuous long-term memory storing. When you're blackout drunk, or under anesthesia, your brain can still infer connections between sequential stimuli (e.g. you can understand words), but none of those memories stay in your brain long-term. I'd say that we were actually conscious during that period, but in the present moment we ha…

> I think that consciousness (or rather the feeling of consciousness) is very related to continuous long-term memory storing. Are you my surgeon? About six years ago I was to undergo somewhat novel surgery and the chappie asked if he could record the procedure, it being a research hospital and all). "Sure," I said, "if you can assure me I will feel no pain." He said that he could not promise that, but they he could a…

In the 1980s a philosopher named Stanly Cavell was asking whether surgeons could intentionally operate on people without pain-suppressing anethesia, provided the patient would remember nothing of it. Chapter-length discussions IIRC.

My simple reaction was always this: Yes it would affect the humanity of the surgeons themselves to do so.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is also a below-conscious-memory level of trauma memory as well, so superficial amnesia might not be enough for the patient to be "unaffected".

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#212

Post by lisper » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #206

lisper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue the exact opposite: the fact that you wake from anesthesia (and sleep) with your identity intact indicates that it still exists even during these periods of unawareness. So if your identity can be restored after sleep and anesthesia, why not after death as well? (For the record: I'm totally with you that there is no life after death. All I'm saying is it's not a slam-dunk, and it is particularly not a…

> So if your identity can be restored after sleep and anesthesia, why not after death as well? I don't know the low level details about how the brain works but... When you're sleeping and are under anesthesia your brain is still an organ that's alive. Your body as a whole exists and is functioning. I don't think this can applied to death if our definition of death is that your skin, organs and cells decompose into no…

> Your identity can only be restored at this point if you believe your identity is fully detached from your brain,

Right.

> in which case then you may believe your identity will continue to exist in an unknown state that as far as I know has never been measured or confirmed in human history.

Right again, but note that this conclusion turns on the absence of observation. It's possible that dualism is true and we just have not yet invented the right instruments to measure it. The germ theory of disease, and even atoms themselves, were once treated with the same skepticism for the same reason.

Yes, dualism is false. But ruling it out is not easy.

> your memory has a gap that can't be accounted for

So? My memory has gaps that can't be accounted for while I was awake.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#213

Post by svnt » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:02 PM UTC

stephen_g wrote: post #136

velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

That doesn’t really make much sense to me… Seems more like a category error than anything - surely anyone who believes in any kind of spiritual afterlife would expect that death on a spiritual level is something much more than simply losing consciousness? Especially if some kind of omniscient deity is believed to be involved, why would such an entity perform any kind of transference into a spiritual realm when you we…

Oh man kids these days don’t remember the days of god v_alpha when we had to put people in caves and roll aside the stone every time they took a nap. So much better now that we upgraded the brainstem firmware to not make that terminate() call.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#214

Post by alok-g » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:03 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #196

alok-g wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experiences only tell you that those were like switching the memory recorder off. It's unclear to me yet how you are able to compare it negatively to the experience of dying.

> compare it negatively to the experience of dying I'm not sure what you mean by this. My point was I was anesthetized but managed to go to the store, buy things and make it back, something dead people aren't able to manage last time I checked. Like Nicola Tesla, I believe my brain is a receiver like a radio and I actually exist in a cloud of consciousness that we all exist in, so I don't have as many negative feelin…

I think my use of the word 'negatively' has caused a confusion. Sorry about that.

What I am asking is about your comparison below. You have experienced anesthesia but not death, then how do you say the following?

>> So I'm going to say anesthesia is not like being dead. ...

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#215

Post by jillesvangurp » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

It's a sensitive topic for a lot of people (mainly because it contradicts world views they might have) but I don't think you are wrong. Consciousness, in so far it is definable at all, seems just an emergent property of our brain.

We're pretty sure it resides in our brain and not for example your toes or other parts of your body since there are plenty of nasty accidents where people lose various parts of their body; or receive replacements for certain things without that really changing who they are or how they think. Also, doctors mess with it intentionally once in a while which definitely has all sorts of effects.

As for anesthesia, that's just using chemicals to knock you out. I once had a mild anesthesia that messed with my short term memory while some unpleasant procedure was taking place. When I asked them when they were starting they informed me it was already done. I have no memory of the whole thing and was apparently "conscious" throughout. Great stuff; would have that again if the need arises.

So, the medically correct answer is of course that a deep coma is virtually indistinguishable from being dead in the sense that there is not a lot going on in terms of brain activity. That kind of is the point of inducing such a level of unconsciousness. It frees up the doctors to mess with out bodies without creating a lot of psychological trauma that excruciating pain might otherwise cause.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#216

Post by nerdjon » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

I have to say, as someone who very much believes as you do (no after life or anything related).

The idea of this kinda scares me? I have never been under anesthesia, but I have kinda accepted that at some point in the not too distant future I will likely need to be for my knees and/or carpal tunnel.

But something about being under it basically being like experiencing death just, it reinforces those fears even more of not waking up.

Like you know it's a possibility, but the connection is a bit of a jarring one.

It is times like this that I understand why religion is so strong. Having the belief that when you do die that you will live on... would be one hell of a comforting one.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#217

Post by BurningFrog » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

We could be entering the spirit world but not retain any memories from it.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#218

Post by Jackpillar » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:13 PM UTC

ne0flex wrote: post #172

stagger87 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might enjoy reading The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. It changed my opinion on almost exactly this topic.

Thank you for the recommendation! Seems like this is the exact problem I'm dealing with. Curious as to how it changed your perspective?

No post body was provided.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#219

Post by ne0flex » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

EarthLaunch wrote: post #199

ne0flex wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily view life as a toleration of living and waiting until death, o hope for a "real thing" after death. I'm more hoping for something along of the lines of a "next phase" like transition from school life to working life. The idea the equation of experiences and knowledge if your life ends with an ...)*0 is just depressing. I'd like to continue to build on my life experiences and reconnect with loved o…

It's not that life ends in a *0 - it's more that we don't get to know what effect our life has. The not-knowing is the hard part. But a little imagination is all it takes to see that life could have some undiscovered long term effect.

I mean 0 in terms of yourself. If nothing exists after death, the way I view it is that upon your death, from your perspective, time ceases to exist and everything essentially dies, sure the world may continue existing around you but, but from you're perspective, it has effectively ended thus 0. The "greater effect" thing is off less concern to me and just seems to sidestep the fact that the objective you ceases to exist.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#220

Post by svnt » Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

otikik wrote: post #67

simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

Pick 3 random stones and arrange them so that they form a straight line. Does the line "exist"? If you consider that only the atoms "count" for existing, then the line does not exist. (Neither do the stones, by the way - since they are constantly exchanging minor quantities of atoms and electrons with the rest of the environment, the set that defines what each stone is is constantly changing. But let's ignore that bi…

You might like to look into papers/books on Integrated Information Theory by Tononi et al. IIT essentially explores the consequences and math of this type of emergence.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theor...