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Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

nautil.us

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Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#121

Post by dkersten »

velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

Trying ketamine made me realize that death is probably similar, slipping away into nothingness.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#122

Post by wing-_-nuts »

ColanR wrote: post #113
velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

I think that's why sleep has been called the 'little death' since ancient times. In a sense, you die every time you sleep, and wake up a slightly different person. Edit: ya'll have dirty minds. Homer refers to 'sleep as the brother of death' in the Illiad. Apparently Buddha said something similar too, though I can't find a source. Edit2: just going to leave you with this: "each day is a little life: every waking and…

Ehem, it's not sleep that's called 'the little death', although it tends to happen in the same place :^)

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#123

Post by amkkma »

dwd wrote: post #79
simonh wrote: post #8

How to approach loss of consciousness is one of the problems I have with non-materialist theories of consciousness like dualism and panpsychism. If consciousness is not generated by my physical brain, how come physical chemicals can manipulate my conscious state? If the brain is a receiver for consciousness, surely my consciousness should exist independently of my brain? Interfering with a radio doesn’t change what’s…

I would highly recommend listening to Anil Seth or reading his book "Being You". He is also highly critical of dualism and panpsychism, and justifiably so. As one of the leading researchers on consciousness, I'm surprised he's not mentioned at all in this. He is extremely fascinated by how consciousness goes away under anesthesia.

Sounds like he's ultimately agnostic on the issue:

" But I’m agnostic about whether at the end of this programme of trying to account in physical terms for properties of experience, there will still be some residue of mystery left, something more to explain."

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/21/neuroscienti...

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#124

Post by CSMastermind »

ColanR wrote: post #113
velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

I think that's why sleep has been called the 'little death' since ancient times. In a sense, you die every time you sleep, and wake up a slightly different person. Edit: ya'll have dirty minds. Homer refers to 'sleep as the brother of death' in the Illiad. Apparently Buddha said something similar too, though I can't find a source. Edit2: just going to leave you with this: "each day is a little life: every waking and…

I wonder if there was some evolutionary advantage to sleep in making death less scary. If you didn't go to sleep every night, then the idea of suddenly becoming unconscious would be absolutely terrifying.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#125

Post by dr_dshiv »

mathieuh wrote: post #7

I've overdosed on heroin before and when I woke up in hospital I had no feeling that time had passed, it was like I time travelled to a point in the future without experiencing the intervening points. Is it the same under anaesthesia or is it more like being asleep in that when you wake up and come to your senses again you are aware of it being later? Because my overdose felt like I just didn't exist for a couple of…

Man, this would be a great way to travel. I'd love to wake up on my hotel bed, after having my body transported in a containerized body box or whatever.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#126

Post by pnut »

ColanR wrote: post #113
velcrovan wrote: post #104

RadioLab did an episode on this topic “Decoding the Void” in 2014 ( https://www.radiolab.org/episodes/anesthesia ) that, for me, pretty much deconstructed the whole idea of an afterlife in 20 minutes. What happens when we die? People commonly think of this as some kind of unknowable mystery. But people lose consciousness all the time and aren't entering the spirit world when they do so. If you’ve ever awoken from gen…

I think that's why sleep has been called the 'little death' since ancient times. In a sense, you die every time you sleep, and wake up a slightly different person. Edit: ya'll have dirty minds. Homer refers to 'sleep as the brother of death' in the Illiad. Apparently Buddha said something similar too, though I can't find a source. Edit2: just going to leave you with this: "each day is a little life: every waking and…

I understand that expression to have a slightly different meaning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_petite_mort

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#128

Post by aj7 »

I’ve woken up twice during simpler procedures. The clarity of my cognition was remarkable. The first time, in my late 30’s I was having an endoscopy of my esophagus. I woke up to find a complex, metallic, uncomfortable apparatus having taken over my head like that fast-moving creature in Alien. I thought,”Shit. I’m gonna have to hold my head still, keep this together, and persevere.” And so I did. The second time, I was getting a stent in the cath lab. I woke up just in time to see the cardiologist instructing a resident, who was holding what looked like a staple gun, (but which of course was trailing at least a 5 meter long cable, the end of which was in my coronary artery.) The cardiologist commanded, “Now do it.” The resident made a weird, semi-violent motion with the staple gun, and I believed implanted the stent at that moment.

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#129

Post by dr_dshiv »

I finetuned GPT3 with the complete works of Plato and posed the question:

"How is the soul different from consciousness or sensation?"

"The soul, I think, is like a sphere, and consciousness or sensation are like circles which move round another centre which moves round yet another centre, and so on in endless cycles." "And the definitions of the soul which you were mentioning," I said, "like that of the circle, were only half-truths?" "Quite so," he answered. "Such a figure as that of the circle is infinitely more like the soul than the said definitions." "Certainly," I replied. "But if we are to use words and names which are not a picture of the actual fact, we shall always be in danger of falling away from the truth." "That is true," he said. "Then let us not presume to say that the soul is the same as consciousness, but let us say rather that the soul is that which becomes aware of any thing." "Very good," he said. "But does the soul perceive through the eyes or any other sense?" "Presumably through the senses." "Not through the ears, however," he interposed. "Why not?" "Because most of the soul's operations are unknown to us." "But if she does not perceive through the senses, what is the function of the senses?" "They prepare the soul to perceive after she is prepared through the true philosophy." "How do they do that?" "The alliance of the simple and pure with the pure is a sort of attunement which gives the soul rhythm and beauty, and makes her aware of the true nature of the senses." "You have certainly explained the matter for me," I said. "Not at all," he said. "Yet I admire the natural ability of your mind."

Re: Under anesthesia, where do our minds go?

#130

Post by saltcured »

avh02 wrote: post #29
porker wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I found it incredibly disorientating, even after the event because time has passed and I have no awareness of it.

I had my first full anesthesia experience as an adult - emergency but minor surgery, so not an extremely scary ordeal. I was very distinctly trying to pay attention to the process of going under, as in: do i feel it fade? etc. I remember doing the countdown thing and also trying to see if i could notice it at all like going to sleep. but, just like an off switch, no state change, just a full stop (but without somethi…

In the last decade, I was put under mildly (?) for an outpatient surgical procedure. I remember trying to tell the doctor that the framerate of my eyes was stuttering (and that I was more observant of such things than some people, due to my career), them telling me to "stop trying to talk" and me trying to say "okay". Next was trying to get oriented in the recovery room to tell the nurse how much pain I was feeling.

In my youth, I was put similarly under for impacted wisdom teeth. I remember becoming aware of the noises and forces on my neck mid-procedure, then opening my eyes and trying to make noises and facial expressions to get their attention. I am not sure how much time passed before I heard one person say, "he's coming out", they paused their work and then it was lights out until recovery again.

In both cases, the anesthesia was explained to me in advance as mild in that my autonomic breathing would still be there, and I could probably respond to them if they talk to me, but I wouldn't remember any of it. Apparently, there is a deeper anesthesia where you are so suppressed that you need more life support and monitoring.

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