Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Case for C# and .NET

chrlschn.medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 376 posts

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#361

Post by raydiatian »

KronisLV wrote: post #354
raydiatian wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t get this That’s because my argument has nothing to do with the language itself but you still felt compelled to write an essay. I’m saying the modern Linux-based tooling, ecosystem, and devex of C# is inferior to so many other choices.

I don't get it because the claim that "If you want to write code in language X, just use language Y" doesn't vibe well with me. It feels needlessly dismissive somehow. Hence the exploration of the good things about each of the languages and genuine reasons why people might enjoy using them for slightly different use cases. At the end of the day, everyone can make that choice for themselves, unless their org makes it…

Ok

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#362

Post by mattferderer »

throw868788 wrote: post #336
mattferderer wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which namespace do I open to import the right extension method to register swagger generation If you use the templates provided by .NET Command Line Interface or Visual Studio, you'll get this all baked in & setup. VS also added a very nice feature where it suggests & imports popular packages if you type a method on a type that's well known. If you already have it added to your project but need a using statement in…

These are nice but: - Templates are no substitute for intuitive and minimal code for a number of reasons. (e.g. how to extend, how to customize, confidence that it isn't brittle if I change one thing, etc etc). If a template doesn't have the exact variation you want (e.g. a faster logging library) the learning curve is very high for a newcomer .NET dev. NOTE: I think this applies to some other OO languages too. - Sug…

I'm curious who does this well? I've personally not found any specific language or framework that is better than others unless you're using their preferred libraries. At that point it depends more on the library authors than the base framework.

For newcomers, I would say the best user experience (no matter language/framework) is provided by code hinting such as GitHub GitLens & competitors do. If I'm using an unfamiliar framework/language it's great at suggesting what I might want without me having to search.

You might really like the new .NET minimal APIs that are being built for web development. They're very similar to a Node.JS style of API.

In regards to logging specifically, I've found swapping logging tools fairly easy & straightforward as far as adding the logging in the code base. If there has been anything challenging it's been outside the code base & setting up the infrastructure or learning the logging's reporting tools. I'm curious what was challenging for .NET with you. It's usually as simple as using Ilogger no matter the tool & writing a few lines in the program.cs file.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#363

Post by exyi »

pjmlp wrote: post #349
throw868788 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just use a mixed solution then i.e. why not both? You're picking one thing that F# isn't great at - generated code tooling which IMO isn't in the spirit of many modern languages anyway. I don't get why some C# devs tend to be antagonistic to F#. Not suited to what you use? That's fine but that doesn't mean it isn't good for others. I've seen dev's coming from other languages to F# and thinking its brilliant that woul…

Mixing languages increases the code complexity and hiring requirements for anyone that has to touch the code. Everyone on the project has to learn two languages, two ecosystems, because naturally F# folks either reinvent or create idiomatic wrappers for what .NET already offers, a typical side effect in guest languages. And then there are the enterprise support teams that explicitly only give support if the issues ar…

Most F# devs know some C# anyway, I don't think this is a big problem. It might be a problem if you mix C# and, IDK, Lua, but C# and F# are just good friends

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#364

Post by pjmlp »

exyi wrote: post #363
pjmlp wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mixing languages increases the code complexity and hiring requirements for anyone that has to touch the code. Everyone on the project has to learn two languages, two ecosystems, because naturally F# folks either reinvent or create idiomatic wrappers for what .NET already offers, a typical side effect in guest languages. And then there are the enterprise support teams that explicitly only give support if the issues ar…

Most F# devs know some C# anyway, I don't think this is a big problem. It might be a problem if you mix C# and, IDK, Lua, but C# and F# are just good friends

The point was the other way around, how to justify the adoption of F# in Microsoft shops, when Microsoft itself isn't sure where to go with it, doesn't invest in better VS tooling for it, and recently behaves as the C in CLR stands for C# instead of Common.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#365

Post by kcartlidge »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #344
kcartlidge wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you like the productivity, just wait till you try Rails. I like Rails (vintage, Rails 5). Unfortunately DotNet and EF combined now have virtually the same productivity but with massively better performance. Which is a shame as Ruby is a great language.

I’ve tried very hard to use EF. If you think it’s equivalent to the productivity of ActiveRecord, well… more power to you, I guess.

And that's why there are so many ecosystems - to cover the variety of tastes and preferences.

I think the end game may be one unique ecosystem per developer (like with JS frameworks).

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#366

Post by throw868788 »

pjmlp wrote: post #364
exyi wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most F# devs know some C# anyway, I don't think this is a big problem. It might be a problem if you mix C# and, IDK, Lua, but C# and F# are just good friends

The point was the other way around, how to justify the adoption of F# in Microsoft shops, when Microsoft itself isn't sure where to go with it, doesn't invest in better VS tooling for it, and recently behaves as the C in CLR stands for C# instead of Common.

I think this is a problem with many languages - e.g. Scala, Kotlin, etc. The easier justification really is: Does it fit your problem space? Will you save dev time overall, is it more maintainable using this tool? Do your staff prefer working with one tool over the other? Does it meet business objectives?

I don't think F# will ever be more than niche; that I can agree with you. Not because of any technical reason though; perception and marketing unfortunately does matter. Your points around "investment", etc are to me impressions/metrics around that.

In the end these things are just tools. I'm personally in a team that is doing a lot of generic math, and in our .NET based projects F# seems easier and quicker to get that performance. I know C# preview adds some improvements here but it seems more complicated than the F# approach.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#367

Post by mccorrinall »

GiorgioG wrote: post #59
mccorrinall wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried writing a simple crud api with asp.net, which should parse and respond json. It was the worst development experience I ever had while writing json apis. Validation? Not existent. OpenAPI/swagger documentation generation? Not existent. Then it also tried to force me into using MVC, while acting that it is express with its middlewares. I switched back to node.js with fastify and wrote my app in an hour. I reall…

Validation and Swagger/OpenAPI have been available for a long time and well documented. I don't know what resources you used to learn ASP.NET, but they failed you.

Looks like I was using the wrong ASP.NET features! Route-to-code does not support OpenAPI.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/web-api/route-t...

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#368

Post by mccorrinall »

chocolatemario wrote: post #102
mccorrinall wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried writing a simple crud api with asp.net, which should parse and respond json. It was the worst development experience I ever had while writing json apis. Validation? Not existent. OpenAPI/swagger documentation generation? Not existent. Then it also tried to force me into using MVC, while acting that it is express with its middlewares. I switched back to node.js with fastify and wrote my app in an hour. I reall…

As a C# developer I could say the same about my experience dealing with my first foray into [insert random language] and my attempt to develop [something with a non-trivial framework]. The issues you had could be attacked by navigating through this section of documentation, diving into the tutorial referenced in the beginning of the Overview section and the subsequent sections: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet…

You are actually right. Today I opened the documentation again: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/web-api/route-t...

And it says right at the bottom, that OpenAPI and model binding is not supported in their route to code feature.

I initially googled how to create a simple json api, and that’s the documentation which I found. Looks really easy in the beginning, but after you’re done with your routes, you’ll read at the end of the documentation, that OpenAPI generation, model binding etc is not supported. I blame that the guide‘s title is misleading and - of course - that I should’ve read till the end before actually following any step of that tutorial.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#369

Post by andrewstuart »

caseagainstnet wrote: post #275
andrewstuart wrote: post #7

C# and TypeScript seem to be far and away the most popular programming languages today. At least from the perspective of recruiting in Australia. Python is on the way up and third most popular but well behind C# and TypeScript. Golang is on the way up but very small in terms of number of developers. Java is on the way down but will never vanish, it's just not super popular any more. Ruby is small enough to just be a…

Right now if I type the following keywords in Seek this is what I get (in order): SQL - 11,425 jobs Java - 7,390 jobs Python - 6,777 jobs C# - 4,995 jobs JavaScript - 4,208 jobs TypeScript - 758 jobs Ruby - 252 jobs Golang - 206 jobs

Did you enclose the search terms in quotes?

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#370

Post by Scarbutt »

bayindirh wrote: post #166
CyanLite4 wrote: post #88

This thread shows there is still a large amount of FUD around .NET and it’s community. Folks here still think it’s Windows-only and comparable to Java. Yet latest TechEmpower benchmarks shows .net running on Linux and being faster than Go, Python, Node, and Rust.

.NET core can run on any platform it wants, but as long as it's from Microsoft, the company as we know it, I won't even write "Hello, World!" with it. A language can't be the fastest at everything in today's mature language ecosystem. OTOH, Debian's "Programming Language Games" benchmarks shows it's on par with Java (which is not slow in any means), and not as fast as you claim [0]. In the page I shared, some C# benc…

Small nitpick, Nodejs has a JIT (via V8) and you will be surprised at its performance when compared to Python.
Post reply on HN