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More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

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Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#671
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the goal is 1 unit net, then min(3x, mean(x)) has massively lower variance than x. The extra power when 3x > mean(x) is just incentive for developing flexible loads and arbitrage.

You’re not listening. They are literally calling for plannable power. I don’t think they’re stupid people either. You cover the base consumption using plannable sources, then use gas/hydro turbines for short term variation. The problem now is that when the wind/solar vary, you can only compensate so much with stored hydro before you empty the reservoir. Then electricity becomes expensive because you burn gas etc, or…

When solar is 1/8th the price of current fission projects for the same net capacity and falling by double digit percentage per year you have a hell of a lot of money left over for moving the energy around.

Fission is around $10/watt with a mostly-plannable capacity factor of 60-80%. Fission is a cakewalk compared to fusion.

Solar is around $0.5/watt with a capacity factor of around 25% and falling rapidly.

The operating and capital costs of a gas plant are around the same with a plannable capacity factor in the high 90s.

So by spending $6 on solar, and $2 on a gas plant. You have $7/watt left over to figure out how to turn free electricity into hydrogen or methane at 50% efficiency and store it for a year.

We already have electrolyzers that work for $0.5 to $1.5 watt at around 50% efficiency.

Hydrogen storage is hard, but that left over $5 per 4kWh/yr should take care of it. If it doesn't, sabatier rractors are getting cheaper too.

The only thing we have to do for people to start using them is stop the coal and gas subsidies.

This is also just one of many options. Salt cavern CAES is similarly viable

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#672
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

building a fission reactor takes one or two decades and its kWh is costlier than alternatives It didn't and doesn't need to be that way. Obviously we need strong regulatory oversight over nuclear power, but a big part of the cost is the need to satisfy incredibly hostile regulations imposed by politicians who are (a) pandering to public fear (b) heavily influence by the fossil fuel industry. Also, talking about kWh c…

I think you underestimate how much lobbying the nuclear industry does. Here's the former head of the US Nuclear regulator talking about how he worked to reduce safety regulations to make it easier to build nuclear plants. Now he thinks no new nuclear power should ever be built: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/i-oversaw-the-us-nucl...

It stands to reason that the nuclear lobby is out for its bottom line, but let’s not lose perspective on just how devastatingly deadly fossil fuel combustion is by comparison, killing an estimated 8.7 million people per year [1]. That’s 1 in 5 of all deaths globally.

Our perceptions of risk are massively skewed by the (literally) explosive nature of nuclear disasters compared to this silent holocaust to which we’re shockingly normalized.

From Our World in Data [2]:

> Nuclear energy, for example, results in 99.9% fewer deaths than brown coal; 99.8% fewer than coal; 99.7% fewer than oil; and 97.6% fewer than gas. Wind and solar are just as safe.

That’s per unit of energy generated.

Curiously, while most can likely name Chernobyl and Fukushima (perhaps fewer Windscale and Three Mile Island), what of the Banqiao Dam disaster, which killed an estimated 171,000 people the 1970s?

All that said, extrapolating the lethality of nuclear generation to a world with many more nuclear plants is fraught, precisely because there are so few data points.

There’s no escaping the fact that these are incredibly complex and expensive machines, which can fail in unexpected ways, no matter how scrupulously they’re designed to be passively safe — especially when compared to a solar PV park.

[1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00139...

[2]: https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is super interesting, let's continue the conversation: population increase is a big factor driving energy consumption (and garbage emissions) indeed. Let's assume we have GLOBAL STAGNANT POPULATION GROWTH from today on. So we stay at 7 billion, no problem (this is of course wrong, nicest estimates say we'll stabilise around 9 billion). The 2 questions now are: 1) what allowed us to reach this amount of populatio…

We should reiterate that this is a discussion about the outcome of nuclear fusion, which if scaled up, would be poised to greatly disrupt CO2 emissions. This means that the imminent concern in the capacity of sustainability (exacerbation of climate change) is largely addressed, save for the carbon capture / cooling aspect we will want. We're depleting resources, and we're also still growing. If we're scrutinizing a f…

I don't feel that you have tried to answer my questions, but let's keep pretending this is a conversation and I will react to your points.

> This means that the imminent concern in the capacity of sustainability (exacerbation of climate change) is largely addressed, save for the carbon capture / cooling aspect we will want.

This seems to show that you have a climate-only lens to look at the problem, even though the point that fusion would greatly disrupt CO2 emissions is 100% correct. The imminent concern is not just exacerbation of climate change.

1) This lens is incomplete because even if we completely stopped emitting CO2 right now we would still go to a destabilisation of the physical world around us due to all the other planetary boundaries being crossed https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-bound.... For example food supply would be disrupted by the artificialization of soils and disruption of the Phosphorus Cycle, many if not most food chains on which we depend will collapse due to the fact that we are killing or consuming most animal species, among which vital insects (the 6th mass extinction has started and is much faster than previous mass extinctions), water supply will be disrupted more and more etc.

2) It's also incomplete because it doesn't account for the other end of the problem : the depletion of ressources. Fusion means we can extract more and more resources, deeper and deeper, creating an even more unbalanced system if it's not done in a way were resources can regenerate themselves at the same rate we extract them.

With what we have done every time we got additional energy so far, it is likely that getting fusion will increase pressure on planetary boundaries that are not CO2 emissions : you fix a problem by worsening the others.

> it makes no sense to assume the same level of depletion. It's a function of demand.

Good point. It's a function of demand, therefore it makes sense to assume the same level of depletion will increase, since more and more people will get access to middle-class (or more) lifestyle, which is the main driver of demand for resources (as opposed to population growth, which is less of a driver if it's population growth in countries without a middle class).

> This also doesn't take into account technological innovation.

As I said this could be a factor that helps with depleting less resources but so far we have observed the impact technology has been to dramatically increase ressource use and waste overall, not reduce them.

> The rich are too few in number and they're primarily rich by virtue of everyone else's consumption. Notwithstanding that their own practices can be very damaging, it doesn't meet that scale.

We are talking about middle classes here, which are massive and meant to become even more massive. It is also true that the richer you are the more you emit but that's a side phenomenon to understand why the amount of middle-class matters.

> There's no evidence that a zero-carbon world with improved energy efficiency would necessarily lead to environmental destruction.

Then you haven't read or studied resources like https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-bound... to begin with a simple/mainstream one for example, you haven't looked at the impact of mining and the orders of magnitude of resources we would need for a world where societies keep having the same behaviour as today, with just the "carbon-free" component added.

Anyway this is a bet: there is no proof it would work either, and if it does not the population will completely collapse. Which way do you want to try? An organised de-growth (in terms of GDP, not total wealth if we account for the destruction of nature) were we know we can make it at the expense of less comfort and consumerism, or try to keep growing and just become net zero carbon, with the hope that we can make it, to the risk of collapsing and making the earth uninhabitable?

One more resource you can look at in case you didn't know about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth#:~:text=T...

Being obsessed with carbon creates blindspots with respect to all the other planetary limits, our oceans are being emptied of life because of what we have done so far with abundant energy. The earth system is being destabilised in many other ways than just climate change. We need a global systemic solution, not to fix the problems one by one separately, because by doing that you will often make other problems worse by fixing one.

I'm not saying we don't need more abundant energy, I'm saying we need to change our philosophy, the way we organise ourselves and what we do with it first.

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#674
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not listening. They are literally calling for plannable power. I don’t think they’re stupid people either. You cover the base consumption using plannable sources, then use gas/hydro turbines for short term variation. The problem now is that when the wind/solar vary, you can only compensate so much with stored hydro before you empty the reservoir. Then electricity becomes expensive because you burn gas etc, or…

When solar is 1/8th the price of current fission projects for the same net capacity and falling by double digit percentage per year you have a hell of a lot of money left over for moving the energy around. Fission is around $10/watt with a mostly-plannable capacity factor of 60-80%. Fission is a cakewalk compared to fusion. Solar is around $0.5/watt with a capacity factor of around 25% and falling rapidly. The operat…

So then according to your analysis there is no problem with solar/wind, and the power companies are basically lying when they say they need plannable power.

Meanwhile people are resorting to paying with their savings to pay the 10-fold increase in their power bills.

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should reiterate that this is a discussion about the outcome of nuclear fusion, which if scaled up, would be poised to greatly disrupt CO2 emissions. This means that the imminent concern in the capacity of sustainability (exacerbation of climate change) is largely addressed, save for the carbon capture / cooling aspect we will want. We're depleting resources, and we're also still growing. If we're scrutinizing a f…

I don't feel that you have tried to answer my questions, but let's keep pretending this is a conversation and I will react to your points. > This means that the imminent concern in the capacity of sustainability (exacerbation of climate change) is largely addressed, save for the carbon capture / cooling aspect we will want. This seems to show that you have a climate-only lens to look at the problem, even though the p…

> The imminent concern is not just exacerbation of climate change.

You described no other imminent problem.

to your 1), food supply is a moot point as population will stagnate. The West often overproduces as it stands and is poised to reduce food waste.

to your 2), we're nowhere near depletion of resources, and there's no reason to believe the average person's purchasing power will not only greatly increase to allow for inordinate amount of consumption, but that it would outpace technological innovation which minimizes and recycles materials.

> With what we have done every time we got additional energy so far, it is likely that getting fusion will increase pressure on planetary boundaries that are not CO2 emissions : you fix a problem by worsening the others.

Fusion, to the extent you're portraying it, is a long ways off, and additional energy has not done much for the average person in the last several decades. It's irrational to project outsized negative impact.

> since more and more people will get access to middle-class (or more) lifestyle

Before population stagnation, yes. That's among the driving forces leading to stagnation. But after which, no. "More and more people" necessarily ends at "all of them".

> so far we have observed the impact technology has been to dramatically increase ressource use and waste overall, not reduce them.

Technology to reduce is in it's infancy. Necessity is the mother of invention. These externalities were never much of concern to the oligarchic, financial and political classes - that is changing.

> Then you haven't read or studied resources

You're looking too short-term.

> or try to keep growing

Nowhere do I advocate for this. False dilemma.

We know we can make it by limiting population growth.

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#676
post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reduces volatility, it doesn't eliminate it. There will still be days when the sun and wind aren't out in a large enough fraction of places that there will be a shortage. It is less likely, but it will still happen. Factories can't just shut down, people can't just choose not to charge their cars or boil their kettles if there's a shortage.

When generation flags and local storage looks likely to be depleted, utilities will order a shipment of ammonia from any of numerous solar farms in the tropics. Most of the time a utility will prefer cheaper local generation, local storage, or transmission-line power before spending on shipped-in synthetic fuel.

I have friends who work in industrial refrigeration, and I have to say, transporting ships full of ammonia around the world is a horrific idea.

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#677

When all these starups fail to deliver anything of value in a few years, the investors will disappear. Commercial fusion power is such a huge challenge IMHO there are only two ways we can get there currently: ITER/DEMO (if it doesn't get overcome by bureaucracy and the members don't loose interest in funding it) or Elon Musk (who is probably the only person who can attract the top talent needed, motivate it to work d…

ITER/DEMO won't deliver value either.

Why?

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#679
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This conversation seems to me a bit outdated: building a fission reactor takes one or two decades and its kWh is costlier than alternatives. To get something cheaper, we need to wait for the next gen of technology, in one or two decades. Lucky if we can compete with the costs of solar, wind and batteries in a decade. Even with the support of greens, government, scientists, etc this is going no where. Nuclear fission…

> What's the point? Energy density.

Oh look, a metric no one cares about.

Re: More invested in nuclear fusion in last 12 months than past decade

#680
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not listening. They are literally calling for plannable power. I don’t think they’re stupid people either. You cover the base consumption using plannable sources, then use gas/hydro turbines for short term variation. The problem now is that when the wind/solar vary, you can only compensate so much with stored hydro before you empty the reservoir. Then electricity becomes expensive because you burn gas etc, or…

When solar is 1/8th the price of current fission projects for the same net capacity and falling by double digit percentage per year you have a hell of a lot of money left over for moving the energy around. Fission is around $10/watt with a mostly-plannable capacity factor of 60-80%. Fission is a cakewalk compared to fusion. Solar is around $0.5/watt with a capacity factor of around 25% and falling rapidly. The operat…

China is selling electrolyzers at $0.30/watt.
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