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Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

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Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#251
This post sounds like it’s satirizing miserable privileged tech workers. You get child care for free in Germany. Tax is high but Berlin is still the cheapest big western city there is. It’s also beautiful and diverse. I earn less than you and get by fine, also know many couples the same.

Yeah it’s changed over 30 years - name a place that didn’t.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What 60% trap is that? The linked page looks very suspicious and doesn't offer much information.

Between 100k and 125k you lose £1 of your tax allowance for each £2 you earn. Which greatly increases your tax in that window.

It does, but not greatly: for a £110k salary the effective taxes (including NIC) are around 35%.

It is not a good idea to get your tax information from an investment corporation advertisement.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#253
I am thinking about leaving as well, as I've come to the same conclusions. If anyone is interested here are some of my reasons and impressions of Berlin.

Berlin is lost, the decline of the rest has begun. The problems are systemic. The social fabric is beginning to crumble.

Organized crime, especially many criminal clans from the islamic\arab-world ("Clankriminalität"), have been a plague since the 80s. It seems they spread and get more brazen. Law enforcement and the judicial system is a joke in that space. Many known violent repeat offenders are walking free after a short time, if caught. They have also started to subvert public offices by bribes and other methods, such as the immigration office, police, job centres. To summarize a quote from an Austrian police journal related to the Austrian Federal Ministry of Internal Affairs [1]: Clankriminalität has long since become an everyday phenomenon in Germany. One can't expect the elimination of Clankriminalität through the measures and strategies deployed, the goal should rather be to curb the dangers and reduce the especially negative manifestations. As an aside, the Mafia has also been growing here (in Germany) [4], concealed, underestimated, insidiously subverting Germany [5]. The weaknesses of the law have been known for decades but no politician or party in power has been willing to do anything.

Massive fraud, often by the same ethnic groups, is made laughably easy by the government. For example, an estimated 1 to 1.5 billion Euros of taxpayer's money was paid out to fraudulent test centres: basically every shisha bar, tiny late-night corner shop, barber shop, etc., became a Covid test-centre overnight, reporting ridiculous numbers of tests, while in reality mostly being empty. They only had to provide their bank details and a kindergarten sketch of their 'facilities' in an online form to open one. The officials did not even bother with criminal background checks. Then they would send in a handwritten tally sheet and receive massive amounts of money. There were over a thousand test centres in Berlin alone. It was obvious what was going on, yet nothing effective was done about it. Another well-known example is social-security fraud, where they would arrive with their new Mercedes-Benz to collect basic welfare. Also: certain groups produce many children, collect child benefits for each one, as well as other benefits and just live on that.

Violence of immigrants, such as mass brawls, happens quite often here. The police has to come regularly to public swimming pools. Here are two examples that happened in the last two months in a public swimming pool: [2], [3]. The first one shows the start of mass brawl. The second one is a brawl between two groups of 12 people, one group got kicked out, but came back with impact weapons, sprayed irritant gas and wanted to attack the security personnel. The police found three of the suspects later and let them go after taking their data (they might get charged). They take over public spaces. This also illustrates the feeling of helplessness ordinary people might have, even if there's just one or two of them, because you know they have friends. You know they are easily offended and prone to extreme violence. You know the police/law/government won't do much to help you or to punish them or remove them from society. So you do the only thing you can, you stop going, you avoid places where they are, you flee when they come, you possibly start voting hard right.

Islamic terrorism\attacks now also happens in the neighbourhood, for example in '21 an Afghan refugee (Abdul Malik A.) stabbed a woman in the neck/throat, the reason he gave was: 'women shall not work'. She survived but is badly crippled. Now the taxpayer pays for her life-long care and his comfortable accommodation in a psychiatric hospital.

Let's not forget the rapes and group/gang rapes, 902 rapes (Vergewaltigung § 177 Abs. 6, 7, 8 StGB) were reported in Berlin in '21 [7]. If you search a bit, you'll find plenty of pretty bad real cases. Here [6] is a case where an Iraqi got 13.5 years for raping four victims (for multiple hours), assault and other serious offences, the youngest victim was 14 years old.

The number of shady looking people has grown over time, where I live. I rarely go out without a knife and I live in the better parts of Berlin.

Primary schools: An acquaintance, a retired teacher from Berlin, gave the general career advice to not become a teacher in Berlin because the children's behaviour has deteriorated so much. I know of a public primary school where violence (kicking, hitting, throwing things), insults and occasionally threats against classmates happens bi-weekly starting from the first grade, but nothing of consequence happens. Some also disrupt the class very massively. The measures taken, such as talking to the parents, a letter of reprimand, a school-yard ban or a couple of days off, do not seem to do anything. Some victims have expressed their unhappiness about this and the often bad/loud learning environment but the teachers/school don't have the legal means to do anything. There are schools in Berlin where much worse stuff happens, there are better ones as well. The alternative are private schools, with the problem that the classmates tend to be from rich families, leading the child to expect or wish for expensive vacations and things.

Public Transportation: It's mediocre. You mostly get where you want to go, but it's expensive, and sometimes it's filled with obnoxious people: drunks, people talking extremely loud, beggars, gypsies. Many station entrances frequently smell of piss. I know a guy that said he only has a car because he wants to avoid the scum in the trains. About half the people don't wear the mandatory mask in the trains (not just Berlin, also regional trains). Thanks to them, I probably got Covid. It's not enforced at all, even the train personnel just ignore it. I think many are afraid to say anything, because they might get shot in the head, beaten up, threatened with a knife or insulted, which has all happened.

Housing: rent has been going up for some years. Good districts have become unaffordable if you are not well off. People stopped moving “Umzugsstreik” because new rent has become so expensive. (The law limits raises somewhat.) You see classifieds-notes posted on street lamps offering 2000€-4000€ reward for help to find a flat 2-3 room flat with a rent of up to x, often with phrases like: “we are desperate”. I have given up.

The design of the general pension system and public health insurance are fundamentally broken for the coming times. I do not know one person under 45 that expects to receive anything worthwhile from the pension system. The insurance premiums are going to rise even more and the payouts for yourself will have been inflated away. Wait times for an appointment with specialist doctors can be multiple months.

It's not just Berlin. It's spreading.

Politics ignores the problem, as they have for years. They don’t go for the root causes. People not directly affected ignore it or don't perceive it until they are affected. The people I know are growing more and more dissatisfied and angry.

Obvious, simple solutions, are ignored because they are not politically correct. For now. As things deteriorate further, add a hard recession/depression and this might change, fast. Winter is coming.

[1] http://dx.doi.org/10.7396/2021_1_B "Clankriminalität ist als Phänomen in Deutschland längst zur alltäglichen Realität geworden. [...] wird man sich von den eingesetzten Maßnahmen und Strategien nicht eine Beseitigung von Clankriminalität erwarten dürfen, vielmehr gilt es eine Eindämmung der Gefahren und eine Verringerung der besonders negativen Erscheinungsformen anzustreben." [2] https://twitter.com/austausch_info/status/153881355654778880... [3] https://www.zeit.de/news/2022-07/21/schlaegerei-im-columbiab... [4] https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/mafia-in-deutschland-zahl-de... [5] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italienische_Mafia_in_Deutschl... [6] https://www.bz-berlin.de/polizei/menschen-vor-gericht/richte... [7] https://www.berlin.de/polizei/_assets/verschiedenes/pks/pks-...

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#254
post #221

I would recommend moving to Germany elsewhere. Berlin is certainly the worst place in Germany, Dresden or Leipzig are much cheaper, and have extremely nice quality of life attributes. w/o cold winters/island: On an island you are on an island. Lots of germans moved to the Baleares, Canares, Portugal, Spain, or some richer Caribbean island, such as Kitts and Nevis or Bahamas. But generally they prefer New Zealand over…

The housing stock in New Zealand and prices for energy unless you're building a passive home from your own specs (which will cost 3-5x more than it would cost to build in EU or US due to materials and labour) will make New Zealand winters (a low of around 1-3C in most of the country) worse than what you experience anywhere else.

Most New Zealanders relied on wood fires until the 90s. Many still do. Most homes are drafty, which is okay during the summer - unbearable in the winter. New Zealand had to supplement older people and retiree heating costs during the winter, because too many old people were getting sick and dying.

Your income will be about half of what you make in the EU, and about a quarter what you'd make in the US. Your cost of living will be higher than both.

For OP, I'd recommend a cheaper part of Europe. You're still within flying distance from friends and family, but you can likely rent, buy or build property that fits your needs during the year.

The north part of Australia might be more suitable if that's something you don't care about - wages are stagnating in Australia, property prices are beginning to plateau (in some cases come down) - however materials and labour are still ridiculous right now.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#255

I am thinking about leaving as well, as I've come to the same conclusions. If anyone is interested here are some of my reasons and impressions of Berlin. Berlin is lost, the decline of the rest has begun. The problems are systemic. The social fabric is beginning to crumble. Organized crime, especially many criminal clans from the islamic\arab-world ("Clankriminalität"), have been a plague since the 80s. It seems they…

Unfortunately, I can write almost everything you wrote about Israel. The problems are very similar even thought the countries are very different, especially regarding their starting point and challenges.

Loss of control over vast areas by the government, property prices, rent rising rapidly. Teachers leaving schools due to out of control children.

And of course the politicians...

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#256
Malaysia. Close to equator with lots of great islands with fast internet. No winters. Lots of tech jobs, especially remote. Easy tech and retirement visas (but very difficult citizenships). Income tax capped at 30%. Really nice houses available at about USD250k. Free/cheap medical costs. English is everywhere, even the constitution is written in it.

If you want islands with good internet, Redang has a really nice view and fresh fish, but no other activity than snorkeling and BBQs. Langkawi is not as beautiful and more developed, beach is a little polluted, but it's a major tourism port with lots of cheap chocolate and alcohol.

Indonesia, Thailand, and Singapore are also great alternatives. Indonesia and Thailand has nicer islands and cheaper lifestyle, a little less English language and lower stability.

Singapore has a higher quality of life overall, and is a tech hub of SEA. Probably doesn't meet the cheap housing requirement.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#257
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of global warming? Then I'd like to point out that the biggest changes in climate have been in the arctic and temperate regions so far, and that's likely to continue for some time. Yes, of course places that are already hotter are closer to becoming unlivably hot, but there are quite a few of places in the tropics that really aren't that hot; for one thing temperatures are more stable around the year. I live…

That's my thinking. What we witnessed over the last 30 years are more and more local maxima and extremes in regions, which typically have very mild weather. I spent significant amounts of time in a number of countries near the equator and do not recall such changes as we currently witness in Europe. But given the fact, that I have absolutely no expertise in the field, I might be totally wrong.

Rising sea levels will mess up a lot of equatorial island regions. Recommend doing research.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#258
post #83

1. Every country on Earth has its own problems. 2. If you move outside of Europe, the culture is going to be vastly different that what you're used to in Germany. While the problems you faced in Germany may get solved, you will run into new problems. Also, aren't Germans supposed to be well organized, disciplined, punctual etc? Most countries near the equator — despite being wonderful in their own unique ways — aren'…

"However, I'm not entirely sure about the software developer scene over there though."

Malaysian dev here.

I think Vulture from Spider-Man Homecoming is a good analogy. It's a lot of people who have been reverse engineering foreign tech. There has been a lot of attempts to "colonize" the area, by Silicon Valley, Rocket Internet, China. Many pull out to fight a war at home and leave behind the tech and expats.

But lack of funding means a lot of jobs are remote. Local companies tend to move their HQ to Singapore and such. Many startups here are ex-Rocket and other foreigners who are good at raising outside money or have deep pockets.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#259

> 30 year low You actually want to retire in Germany AND THEN move wherever. You are too invested in a single country and its benefits system to give it away just a few years before they are due

As a selfemployed I do not get any pension at all. That's the point. I'd be in for a tax based pension system and I'd happily pay for it. Unfortunately public pension is prohibitively expensive and a pretty bad investment. You're better off investing your savings yourself. So there's no point in waiting for me.

Re: Ask HN: Leaving Germany – where to find quality of life as experienced engineer?

#260

This post sounds like it’s satirizing miserable privileged tech workers. You get child care for free in Germany. Tax is high but Berlin is still the cheapest big western city there is. It’s also beautiful and diverse. I earn less than you and get by fine, also know many couples the same. Yeah it’s changed over 30 years - name a place that didn’t.

> This post sounds like it’s satirizing miserable privileged tech workers.

It's more someone working since the age of 16. Working hard for an average or more than 13 hours a day for nearly 30 years straight. Earning above average is IMO totally justified, but I accept your opinion.

> You get child care for free in Germany.

Ha! Try to find a KiTa in Berlin. Even if the law says so, it does not mean there's enough supply!

> Tax is high but Berlin is still the cheapest big western city there is

It once was. If you belong to those who were forced to move into the suburbs with all the associated cost, your point of view would be quite different.

> It’s also beautiful and diverse.

I think we can agree to disagree. As someone born and raised here I've never seen the city in a situation worse than today.

> I earn less than you and get by fine, also know many couples the same.

Congrats. Do you or your friends have to make up for their own pension yourselfes?

> Yeah it’s changed over 30 years - name a place that didn’t.

Change is good. It's the only constant. Unfortunately it changed to the worst. But you can only see that, if you know, how it's been before.

Thanks for your thoughts anyways.

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