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Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

theatlantic.com

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Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#71

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

AlbertCory wrote: post #68
sssilver wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me wonder, is it possible that the pool of solutions available to Russia's leaders is objectively limited due to Russia's geopolitical and sociopolitical realities and they really don't have too much of a rational choice?

That's a point that deserves deeper study. They have (from memory) 13 countries on their borders, and almost no "natural" borders, e.g. rivers or mountain ranges. They have a history that's blood-curdling. Expecting a new czar to make it like Denmark is a bit much. The West tried in the 90s, and Boris Yeltsin is not remembered fondly over there. The emergence of gangster capitalism was the result.

Yeltsin also has blood on his hands from the First Chechen War. Democracy a la russe…

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#74

Post by bay18 »

Ma8ee wrote: post #44
thejackgoode wrote: post #24

If you're interested in some constructive arguments why this article is wrong, please see a thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1516162437455654913.html

I’m quite certain a very similar article could be written about, say, UK and Ireland with quotes from famous authors. It’s not that the English lack an imperialist past and feelings of superiority.

No post body was provided.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#75

Post by lbrito »

vlyubin wrote: post #13

A Ukrainian here - couldn't disagree more with the author. Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Even a modern sci-fi author Sergei Lukyanenko does not shy away from racial jokes against Ukrainians or Lithuanians in his Dozor books. Ukraine is a pawn at the world stage, but if the West is serious about battling russia (for its ow…

I'm baffled how this seems only to apply to the Ukraine this one time. Any meaningful discussion is labeled "whataboutism" and dismissed.

You will surely agree with me that Russia is not the world's pioneer in wars of aggression. What about (oh no, whataboutism! We can safely dismiss the argument without thinking now) all the other countries that did, and do the same? Should we also dismiss their cultural output?

I'm not trying to diminish the seriousness of Russia's aggression, or how much Ukrainians are suffering. That is not the point. I want to know why you think we should dismiss Dostoevsky but not Shakespeare (to be clear, Shakespeare is just an example. I am not talking specifically about the UK). Basically every great artist and intellectual was part of a war-waging genocidal empire, and many of them pro-regime in varying degrees (Dostoevsky being a good example of the "varying"). Appreciating these people doesn't mean supporting the empires.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#76

Post by Benobba »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #26

[flagged]

Yes, you make some good points about the purposeful dominance of a certain aspect of Russian culture in Ukraine.

These people don’t mention that Ukraine schools only teach Russian Literature. There was no Ukrainian Literature. No World Literature. They don’t mention that Russian language classes are the default in schools. That many teachers discourage the learning subjects in Ukrainian language. That many Ukrainians do not have any knowledge of their ancestors because of Leaders in the Soviet Union did not want them to have any feeling of nationality.

There is a reason that Russia is funding Russian learning Schools in Kazakhstan.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#77

Post by barrikad »

azangru wrote: post #25
vlyubin wrote: post #13

A Ukrainian here - couldn't disagree more with the author. Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Even a modern sci-fi author Sergei Lukyanenko does not shy away from racial jokes against Ukrainians or Lithuanians in his Dozor books. Ukraine is a pawn at the world stage, but if the West is serious about battling russia (for its ow…

> Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Solzhenitsin is one of the best literary chroniclers of repressions in the Soviet Russia (One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, The Gulag Archipelago, In the First Circle), with the degree of earnestness and realism that approaches Tolstoy's. How does his compassion to Ukranians, or lack…

Solzhenitsin was also a right wing Russian nationalist who was absolutely part of the problem. That "realism that approaches Tolstoy's" you mentioned is actually mostly folklore and vastly exaggerated for propaganda purposes (see https://www.nytimes.com/1974/02/06/archives/solzhenitsyns-ex...).

> Solzhenitsyn's Greater Russian, Orthodox-driven nationalism, Elder notes, "once made him appear sorely out of touch, but today has become increasingly fashionable." Although he is best known for his exposure of the Soviet Gulag system and his staunch anti-communism, Solzhenitsyn welcomed Putin's rise to power in 1999 and praised him for restoring Russia's national pride. In 2007, Putin visited the ailing Solzhenitsyn at home to award him a state prize for his humanitarian work. In "Rebuilding Russia," published in the dying days of the U.S.S.R., Solzhenitsyn criticized the Soviet government's haphazard border policies that he said carved up traditional "Rus." He advocated a "Russian Union" encompassing Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and the ethnic Russian parts of Kazakhstan.

From here: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/ho...

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#78

Post by throw0101a »

AlbertCory wrote: post #68
sssilver wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me wonder, is it possible that the pool of solutions available to Russia's leaders is objectively limited due to Russia's geopolitical and sociopolitical realities and they really don't have too much of a rational choice?

That's a point that deserves deeper study. They have (from memory) 13 countries on their borders, and almost no "natural" borders, e.g. rivers or mountain ranges. They have a history that's blood-curdling. Expecting a new czar to make it like Denmark is a bit much. The West tried in the 90s, and Boris Yeltsin is not remembered fondly over there. The emergence of gangster capitalism was the result.

As opposed to any other Eastern/Central European country? Is (e.g.) Poland's history any less turbulent?

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#79

Post by Mikeb85 »

mmmpop wrote: post #6
lordleft wrote: post #2

Apart from the abstract conviction that we should not indict the cultural output of a country that is under the thrall of an oligarch, I'm a bit baffled at the notion of decrying Tolstoy of people -- a Christian anarchist who radically challenged all of the assumptions of Tsarist Russia. Basically all of the great Russian writers lived in opposition to the various incarnations of the Russian State (Tsarist Russia, US…

> I don't blame some Ukrainians for feeling the way that they do I can certainly see why they're upset but it's a problem with Russia's leader at the time, and not the culture right? If it's a long-standing cultural issue then I'd imagine some introspection would also be required, which seems like it may undermine the whole notion.

No post body was provided.

Re: Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky

#80

Post by nineplay »

azangru wrote: post #16

I wonder who Shishkin is writing this for, and why he bothers. Readers interested in Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, or Chekhov are presumably intellectuals. Presumably, they will be familiar with the countless examples from history when, driven by patriotic fervor, countries cleansed themselves from the culture of an adversarial state, including language, literature, music, linguistic borrowings, scientific contributions, com…

I'm going to challenge this because I think it suggests that reading the Russian classics is an intellectual challenge with a perquisite of studying Russian history and culture.

Dostoyevsky's works are amazing without any background knowledge. No 'intellectualism' is required, just a love of stories. With a few tweaks they could be set in a modern era and turned into Netflex series.

War and Peace is considered a challenge because of the rambling philosophical chapters between the main action, but strip those out and you have Gone with the Wind. Easily enjoyed without any extra frontal lobe matter.

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