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Apple Interview – 1995

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Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#21

Post by 2143 »

twawaaay wrote: post #6
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

>I should pause here and point out that an interview at Apple was an all-day affair. Pairs of engineers would meet with and interview me for perhaps an hour. The first pair of engineers might grill me on some esoteric topic like code design, afterwards the next pair of engineers would sit down and maybe cover programming language specific questions. This took place in 1995, and sounds pretty much exactly like a techn…

No, people were not. What changed is the demand grew enormously and in response, as in every other business of life, a lot of people who only have passing interest in it got into it because it pays well. So now you have companies have to sort through huge pile of mediocre candidates. This causes the process to be very noisy, a lot of screwed incentives and a lot of false positives and negatives. Applicants are now he…

> Bad news is that most people are not good developers and they don't even know about it

How do I know if I'm good? Like, before applying, so that I don't have to waste anybody's time.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#22

Post by jseban »

twawaaay wrote: post #6
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

>I should pause here and point out that an interview at Apple was an all-day affair. Pairs of engineers would meet with and interview me for perhaps an hour. The first pair of engineers might grill me on some esoteric topic like code design, afterwards the next pair of engineers would sit down and maybe cover programming language specific questions. This took place in 1995, and sounds pretty much exactly like a techn…

No, people were not. What changed is the demand grew enormously and in response, as in every other business of life, a lot of people who only have passing interest in it got into it because it pays well. So now you have companies have to sort through huge pile of mediocre candidates. This causes the process to be very noisy, a lot of screwed incentives and a lot of false positives and negatives. Applicants are now he…

> Bad news is that most people are not good developers and they don't even know about it because really good developers are so few and concentrated in relatively few places. In effect, most developers will never have a chance to work with one.

Yeah and having an outstanding skill or performance is not important in an average company/organisation, and will most likely give you only trouble. Larger organisations are risk averse, optimised for stability and longevity. Not short term performance. It's not a sports team.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#23

Post by tambourine_man »

2143 wrote: post #21
twawaaay wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, people were not. What changed is the demand grew enormously and in response, as in every other business of life, a lot of people who only have passing interest in it got into it because it pays well. So now you have companies have to sort through huge pile of mediocre candidates. This causes the process to be very noisy, a lot of screwed incentives and a lot of false positives and negatives. Applicants are now he…

> Bad news is that most people are not good developers and they don't even know about it How do I know if I'm good? Like, before applying, so that I don't have to waste anybody's time.

If you’re asking that question, you’re way above average already.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#24

Post by grog454 »

twawaaay wrote: post #10
hasmolo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don’t think you’re wrong, i just think you may have lost sight of some external factors. in 1995, the market was naturally filled with folks interested in computers more organically. now, software writing is the modern “factory floor” worker bee position. interestingly, a huge part of the field can’t accept that we aren’t especially unique or smart, just able to tell a computer how to process inputs. we take this n…

> telling someone to interview for two hours, having them decide that of all the offers of interviews they had yours was least interesting with the highest barrier to entry, and you deciding they were at fault isn’t going to help you deal with the modern realities of software But that is not my goal. My goal is hire as good developers as I can retain. I don't care about people bitching and moaning that the process is…

>If somebody does not care enough to work for us to put in couple of hours of work then they are very likely not a good candidate anyway. [emphasis mine]

You compensate candidates for their time? I certainly assume you are compensated to interview incoming candidates, but its unusual for the candidate to be compensated (though not unheard of).

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I also get the impression having not been on the other side of the process recently has biased your viewpoint significantly. Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions / impressions.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#25

Post by pfarrell »

2143 wrote: post #21
twawaaay wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, people were not. What changed is the demand grew enormously and in response, as in every other business of life, a lot of people who only have passing interest in it got into it because it pays well. So now you have companies have to sort through huge pile of mediocre candidates. This causes the process to be very noisy, a lot of screwed incentives and a lot of false positives and negatives. Applicants are now he…

> Bad news is that most people are not good developers and they don't even know about it How do I know if I'm good? Like, before applying, so that I don't have to waste anybody's time.

Keep a personal resume doc going. List out the projects you’ve done, how you contributed, who benefitted, and quantify the benefit if you can.

Keeping a running list like this is how you can build confidence and see a bigger picture to your career. I did this recently at my current job as I was approaching burnout. It helped me reset that tailspin.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#26

Post by sarchertech »

twawaaay wrote: post #15
sarchertech wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't care about people bitching and moaning that the process is too arduous. Actually, I am happy about it because I can efficiently swipe left on them. And that’s how you know there isn’t really a shortage of developers. My wife works in a field with a real shortage. When she gets interviewed, they fly her out and spend 2 days showing her around, taking her out, and trying to convince her to work for them.

There is a shortage of actual developers. But there is no shortage of people who don't care about what they are doing or whether they can do it at all. When you are looking through piles of thousands of people, you are looking for ways to pare it down so that you are left at every step with higher concentration of the first group. Because spending same amount of effort on everybody is not a viable strategy.

> There is a shortage of actual developers. But there is no shortage of people who don't care about what they are doing or whether they can do it at all.

In nearly 20 years of doing this I’ve have never had one of these dreaded fake developers make it through the resume screen, initial phone call, and a conversation with an engineer.

And if I did, we’d just fire them as soon as it was clear they lied about their ability.

I have had plenty of the other extreme, very technically proficient developers who turned out to be terrible employees for other reasons.

My initial point is that if you can afford to make your screening process arduous enough that you’re turning away otherwise qualified people because they don’t want to work for you bad enough to jump through your hoops, then there’s not a shortage.

If there was really a shortage, you’d do what every other industry does. Hire based on resume, and fire the fakers.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#27

Post by ricksunny »

twawaaay wrote: post #6
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

>I should pause here and point out that an interview at Apple was an all-day affair. Pairs of engineers would meet with and interview me for perhaps an hour. The first pair of engineers might grill me on some esoteric topic like code design, afterwards the next pair of engineers would sit down and maybe cover programming language specific questions. This took place in 1995, and sounds pretty much exactly like a techn…

No, people were not. What changed is the demand grew enormously and in response, as in every other business of life, a lot of people who only have passing interest in it got into it because it pays well. So now you have companies have to sort through huge pile of mediocre candidates. This causes the process to be very noisy, a lot of screwed incentives and a lot of false positives and negatives. Applicants are now he…

Not an SWE here - I wonder if the process itself is seen as value-creating by either side, even if a job offer isn't placed? For example, discussing code design may keep the hiring party at the cutting edge / state of the art without having to undertake refresher training cost. The candidate also gets to understand where they stack in terms of hiring companies' expectations, and may opt to retrain as necessary.

(I'm reminded of the stories when FB was looking to make a smartphone pre-Oculus - it sounded like they were interviewing candidates but effectively getting design strategy consults out of them gratis, but that's probably more extreme than this).

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#28

Post by mikelevins »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

>I should pause here and point out that an interview at Apple was an all-day affair. Pairs of engineers would meet with and interview me for perhaps an hour. The first pair of engineers might grill me on some esoteric topic like code design, afterwards the next pair of engineers would sit down and maybe cover programming language specific questions. This took place in 1995, and sounds pretty much exactly like a techn…

I interviewed at Apple in 1987, and it was an all-day interview, but it wasn't much like the technical interviews I've done in more recent years--the ones characterized by brain teasers and whiteboard coding. There was none of that in my Apple interviews. They made me an offer and I worked there for ten years.

Now, we can't conclude from that whether Apple has adopted whiteboarding and brain teasers generally. In those days Apple did interviews the way they did everything else: each group at the company did things their own way. I don't know whether that's true anymore; I left Apple in 1998. All I know is that I interviewed with them again four or five years ago, and that was a lot of interviews over a couple of days, but still no whiteboarding or brain teasers.

The first time I encountered what is now referred to as the technical interview was at Microsoft in about 1990 or 1991. I bombed it. Turns out I'm worthless at whiteboarding and brain teasers. They gave me an offer, anyway. Two, in fact. I turned down both. Microsoft would have made me a lot of money, but I didn't want to work for those guys.

That pattern repeated several times over the years: bomb technical interview; get offer anyway. Finally I just stopped doing it. I don't like it and I don't think it measures anything relevant to my work. If it did, why would I get offers after bombing those parts of interviews? Why would most of my employers be people I've worked for before? Why would they ask me to work for them again?

So, generally speaking, I just don't do those kinds of interviews anymore. If you believe in them for hiring, knock yourself out. We're not a match.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#29

Post by chrchang523 »

mikelevins wrote: post #28
MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

>I should pause here and point out that an interview at Apple was an all-day affair. Pairs of engineers would meet with and interview me for perhaps an hour. The first pair of engineers might grill me on some esoteric topic like code design, afterwards the next pair of engineers would sit down and maybe cover programming language specific questions. This took place in 1995, and sounds pretty much exactly like a techn…

I interviewed at Apple in 1987, and it was an all-day interview, but it wasn't much like the technical interviews I've done in more recent years--the ones characterized by brain teasers and whiteboard coding. There was none of that in my Apple interviews. They made me an offer and I worked there for ten years. Now, we can't conclude from that whether Apple has adopted whiteboarding and brain teasers generally. In tho…

It sounds like you're misevaluating your technical interview performance. You can feel like you're "bombing" an interview, while still performing above expectation. Some interviewers ask hard technical questions, don't expect most candidates to complete them within the allotted time, and give "hire" recommendations for some (but of course not all) that don't.

Re: Apple Interview – 1995

#30

Post by rockyj »

MontyCarloHall wrote: post #5

>I should pause here and point out that an interview at Apple was an all-day affair. Pairs of engineers would meet with and interview me for perhaps an hour. The first pair of engineers might grill me on some esoteric topic like code design, afterwards the next pair of engineers would sit down and maybe cover programming language specific questions. This took place in 1995, and sounds pretty much exactly like a techn…

I would take a 1 day multiple round interview any day. Nowadays, it is like -

- Recruiter reaches out on LinkedIn. You reply.

- Call with recruiter, repeat every thing in resume. Recruiter says ok, sometimes they just say we were looking for X years in Python to a JS programmer.

- First call with a manager (after 1 week) to check fit.

- Take home programming assignment (spend 4-6 hours on weekend).

- If code review is ok, another call to discuss the solution or improve it (1 hr, after 2 weeks).

- Last call with senior manager (1 hr, another week wait)

- HR offer

All in all, it takes around 6 weeks and multiple calls (not to mention doing this for multiple offers). Worst case - you fail at the last round, or code is rejected due to some crazy reason and yes, even after all this you get a 10% raise :D

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