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Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

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Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#201

Post by bayesian_horse »

amluto wrote: post #90
bayesian_horse wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need to have only one line to connect everything, even in a linear structure. It's still about the topology. At the simplest there would be one line connecting from end to end, which should be the fastest and the one with the fewest stops. But then you have smaller lines, travelling in their own tubes, connecting local areas. That way you can travel between any two points relatively fast and avoid congesti…

In 2D, you can build a grid of straight line railways. Riders transfer zero or one times. Cost scales proportionally to area (and hence population) assuming constant density. Time between two random points scales as sqrt(size). Ridership on a given rail segment scales like sqrt(size), which may be tolerable. In 1D, you can build a linear railway. Cost scales proportionally to length (and hence population) if you assu…

It's harder to build a grid of straight railways. You need more bridging or crossing at the very least. You are right about 2D being more efficient in terms of the length between two random points, but there could be scenarios where the simplicity still outweighs that benefit, especially given all the other factors in this project, like sunlight.

The length is also much less of a concern than in traditional transport systems because of less friction and less need to brake, so most of the energy is for accelerating and decelerating at the stops.

Of course it would blow up if you wanted to build a fully connected city that is twice that length or even longer, but that's not proposed.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#202

Post by simonh »

lr wrote: post #161
lordnacho wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine works on the NEOM project, and it really is like winning the lottery. Remote work with an occasional field trip to look at the place. But Google level salary to tell them how to save some data. The scale of the feeding trough is unimaginable. I saw an advert for NEOM on Piccadilly Circus, the whole entire e-wall, and the place isn't even built yet, so I'm not sure if they're using it to recruit. It's…

People can’t seem to get enough of science fiction, but every time something is presented that would move the needle in that direction, the detractors line up in droves. With attitudes like this, it really will be the 25th century before humanity does do anything of significance (if we even live that long).

This really wouldn't move the needle in that direction, it's a complete waste of resources. The only thing we'll learn from this thing is what a bad idea it is.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#203

Post by simonh »

ignoramous wrote: post #102
pavlov wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As more of them arrived, foreign employees began describing their experiences with a joke: When you start at Neom, you bring two buckets. The first is to hold all the gold you’ll accumulate, and with so many living expenses taken care of, it will soon grow heavy. The second bucket is for all the shit you take. When that bucket is full, you pick up your bucket of gold and leave. It often doesn’t take long; many peopl…

The difference in media coverage and the reaction that follows when folks in the West (say, Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates) dream up ambitious future, and when folks in the East do so, is quite telling.

The difference between those people is not east and west. It's that the first three built their own companies using their own skills and experience in the face of an awful lot of people saying No, while the last one was born a prince to a Trillion-air royal family and grew up surrounded by people terrified to say anything but Yes.

But that's really beside the point. The real issue is this project is a monumental waste of resources. Innovating on advanced technology takes a huge amount of investment, but it doesn't follow that a huge amount of investment, by itself, will result in useful advanced technology.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#204

Post by taink »

Dan42 wrote: post #186
taink wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of atrium-like structures but extended to a massive scale to fit cities. [1] Regardless of the feasibility of this mega-project, what concerns me is how difficult it would be to escape from living in what is essentially a big mall. Maybe that's what feels dystopian to most people here? [1] https://youtu.be/VuOyygDRN-w

That's an interesting video, but it focuses on entirely enclosed "interior cities". But the lack of sunlight and connection to the outside has been a known weakness of those places for decades. This "LINE" design at least attempts to address that by providing a massive view to the outside via two 500m-tall transparent walls.

Yes, I guess it does address the lack of exposure to the outside ; my point is that it must be quite difficult to disconnect from "the city" -- advertising billboards, noise... In this case, the outside is even completely devoid of life.

This concern doesn't stop me from being fascinated by urban megastructures such as the "LINE", I'm just not sure I would like to live in them (and I love living in a crowded city nonetheless!).

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#205

Post by olalonde »

panick21_ wrote: post #179
olalonde wrote: post #23

265,000 people per sqkm, that's some nice population density. Cool concept, but I wonder what they mean by "equitable views". I presume not all housing units will be on the edges given that it's 200m wide.

Population density is really the most important factor when considering building in a desert.

I had the same thought but at the same time, population density can be desirable in itself and not just out of necessity. I'd definitely rather live in a dense city rather than in the desert country side.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#206

Post by mihaic »

To not assume complete stupidity, I'd imagine the Saudi's are looking at Dubai's success in locking in foreign capital into real-estate speculation, and want to imitate that. I'm sure they're hoping to stir up interest and lock in as much speculative commitment before anything is done and are treating it like the world is their Softbank.

Doing this while being surrounded by yes-men and not being grounded in reality is a recipe for disaster, I just hope they don't burn some pension fund money along the way.

I for one don't wish to see Megacity Wahid built, but I hope they burn as much money as possible along the way.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#207

Post by unethical_ban »

yourusername wrote: post #175
lr wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can’t seem to get enough of science fiction, but every time something is presented that would move the needle in that direction, the detractors line up in droves. With attitudes like this, it really will be the 25th century before humanity does do anything of significance (if we even live that long).

Maybe people are hoping more for 'Star trek' than 'Judge dredd'.

Megacities and a brutal legal system are not inexorably paired.

Saudi Arabia and a brutal legal system, however.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#208

Post by hansword »

satyrnein wrote: post #195
scythe wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>5-minute walkable neighborhoods. The proximity to services of cities combined with the roominess of suburbs. At least in theory it's the perfect place to live. The problem with 175 km of continuous "subway" is that you probably don't want to walk more than 2.5 km to the train (if that, it's Arabian hot) so you have 35 stops (5 km apart) along the line at a minimum — with a blistering acceleration of g = 10 m/s^2 you…

The video says it's 20 minutes end to end, somehow.

With an express train from the easternmost stop to the westernmost stop, zero in-between stops... possible, but not very practicable.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#209

Post by unethical_ban »

scythe wrote: post #155
Dan42 wrote: post #125

I doubt it will get built, but they really have people who understand the fundamental concepts behind Arcology. Honestly I'm surprised at how many parts of the design are well thought-out and well adapted to the desert environment. Sunlight from the sides, but not so much that it overheats the city. Heat escapes up. 5-minute walkable neighborhoods. The proximity to services of cities combined with the roominess of su…

>5-minute walkable neighborhoods. The proximity to services of cities combined with the roominess of suburbs. At least in theory it's the perfect place to live. The problem with 175 km of continuous "subway" is that you probably don't want to walk more than 2.5 km to the train (if that, it's Arabian hot) so you have 35 stops (5 km apart) along the line at a minimum — with a blistering acceleration of g = 10 m/s^2 you…

A train system wouldn't have to stop at every neighborhood linearly. They could optimize for connections.

Re: Saudi Crown Prince unveils plans for $500bn structure to house 9M people

#210

Post by idlehand »

simonh wrote: post #203
ignoramous wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference in media coverage and the reaction that follows when folks in the West (say, Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates) dream up ambitious future, and when folks in the East do so, is quite telling.

The difference between those people is not east and west. It's that the first three built their own companies using their own skills and experience in the face of an awful lot of people saying No, while the last one was born a prince to a Trillion-air royal family and grew up surrounded by people terrified to say anything but Yes. But that's really beside the point. The real issue is this project is a monumental wast…

It's probably not a very efficient use of capital, but it's better than the Saudis spending it on their military.
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