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The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

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Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#61
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Confucianism is sufficient to explain it. They don't feel a loss of control because they're beholden to their families. That's a little silly. It's really mostly the other pillar of Chinese culture; Taoism. The two belief systems over the centuries go through cycles of being influential and Taoism in the new capitalistic China is re-emergent. Taoism is really a lot about individualism, but it's also abo…

Confucianism is historically the heart of Chinese culture. Taoism has never been as singularly influential in China as Confucianism has, nor is its "resurgence" sweeping away Confucianism. Assigning the idea of e.g. fatalism to "mostly Taoism" is also inaccurate. As far as popular beliefs go, Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist beliefs have mixed together in the past centuries when we're talking about the influence of th…

(sry posting from a different account, but same person)

I think your views of Chinese culture is being colored by a skin deep look at China's past hundred years. I think as a a whole Chinese history would disagree with you. During times of dynastic change Taoism was the prevailing cultural trope. Because dynastic change isn't the majority of historical time it can give the impression that Confucianism is the dominant "religion", but these moments of turmoil are critical and their effects are long lasting. Taoism (or at least their way of looking at things) is always in the background.

Just as an example, look at the literati culture after the take over of the Yuan Dynasty. Southern Song loyalists persisted for about two generations and really revitalized Taoist-inspired world views. They were the driving engine of Chinese culture during that time. Things like romanticizing the farmer, living of the land, the life of recluses etc.

A very similar thing happened after the take over of the Qing dynasty. Ming loyalists revitalized many of the same ideas.

During more tumultuous times Chinese turn to the more individualistic, less paternalistic side of their Culture as the central authority (and everything it represents - a father figure, the cultural vanguard etc.) erodes.

Right now, with the influx of Western ideas/culture and lifestyle the authority of the Communist regime is eroding to an extent. People view it as corrupt, inept and it doesn't command the respect it once had.

I think there is a cultural "swing" that is going to happen. And my argument was that neither system is conducive to entrepreneurship

"Assigning the idea of e.g. fatalism to "mostly Taoism" is also inaccurate." it's obviously an over simplification on my part. It's a complicated multifaceted world view of course, but fatalism plays an important part from what I understand. It's a little unfortunate that you didn't elaborate because I'd love to know your view of Taoism. I'm by no means an expert (haven't read any Taoist literature for instance), but from what I know it isn't the belief system of the capitalist-entrepreneur.

___ Example of Taoist influence: I've mostly approached Chinese culture from the artistic perspective, but look at for example Bada Shanren (Ming Loyalist), vs. like

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oGdVGUT7... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_Zhou

Even without knowing a lot of abotu Chinese art, you can see that Shen Zhou has a more traditional Confusian take on art (he's imitating the masters. That's why his work looks more "generic") while Bada is a lot more experimental and lets his individuality come through his art (Shen does too, but in more subtler ways that aren't very easy to explain).

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#62
There was a great article in the New York Times last year that partly attributed Italy's stagnation to its unusually insular, family-oriented culture.

"The suspicion of Italians when it comes to extra-familial institutions explains why many here care more about protecting what they have than enhancing their wealth. Most Italians live less than a mile or two from their parents and stay there, often for financial benefits like cash and in-kind services like day care. It’s an insularity that runs all the way up to the corporate suites. The first goal of many entrepreneurs here isn’t growth, so much as keeping the business in the family."

See: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/business/global/01italy.ht...

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#63

I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries have the same excuses. There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio. Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my company (which failed) in th…

Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they can. It would be selfish to create a star…

I think a large part of it is simply the belief that people with well-connected parents will succeed no matter what, and for a poor farmer to get to the top (competing with 1.3 billion peers) they need to be both incredibly lucky and talented and hard working. I don't think they think it's impossible to do fairly well, no matter who you are - if only because the government wants them to think that. People tend not to riot if they believe they have other options.

Most Chinese tend to be fairly pro-risk, but only after they have a degree. Cushy government jobs, or white-collar jobs in big corporations are preferred, but a reasonable number of Chinese want to start businesses. You don't have to meet that many old ladies selling wonton soup making twice the average wage of a university graduate to know the value of starting a business.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#64

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that ta…

I agree that rents are high compared to the average earning, but different places have different costs. For instance I live near Catania (it is not really Catania but very close, where half of the people that work in Catania live, in the little towns in the Etna side), and I pay 450 euros per month for an 80 square meters house (not very big but mid-size for here), with even furnitures and so forth.

Catania is not Milano and here we are in Sicily, but on the other side this is among the most costly places in Sicily, and at 10 Km from where I live there are tens of gyms, 1 Apple Store, a few very big cinemas and plenty of commercial centers and so forth.

Btw here there are a great number of programers, surely not less programmers than in the rest of Italy in average.

So the question could be, what is blocking the south where costs are much more reasonable from entering the startups business? I guess that cultural factors have the most weight...

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#65
post #7

National Geographic made an editorial describing how teen brains are more prone to risky behavior: >> Peaking during adolescence is risk-taking. We court risk more avidly as teens than at any other time. This shows reliably in the lab, where teens take more chances in controlled experiments involving everything from card games to simulated driving. And it shows in real life, where the period from roughly 15 to 25 bri…

[deleted]

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Austria and have to pay about 40 to 50% tax on any income. At least I know it's going towards things such as free universities, free healthcare, unemployment insurances for everyone. Makes the pill a bit easier to swallow.

Looks like very good compared to Brazil, where we pay around 40% and still have to pay for private healthcare and education because the public services are terrible.

It must suck to live in Italy and pay a lot of taxes, knowing it's going straight into the pockets of corrupt and populist politicians while social services are cut and the whole economy starts spiraling downwards.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#69
Amazing article acangiano! Specially loved the graph...It just shows that the people who believe that success lies in their own hands end up being wealthier and more successful!

I am an Indian. Yes the last column in the bar and I can totally understand what u mean about countries sucking at start up games. There is a negative mindset people have towards building new businesses. The safety and the boredom of a government job is much more appealing to them. Makes me sad...

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#70
not to defend Italians, but 20 (probably more) years of bad government and mafia collusion have robbed money from salaries and people, killing every real chance of growth and without giving back in turn any good social service

to me these have at least influenced "Fatalism" and "Risk aversion"

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