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Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

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Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#41

Post by ok123456 »

vbezhenar wrote: post #24
ForHackernews wrote: post #14

Kubernetes was a clever ploy to trick cloud providers into abstracting themselves into irrelevance, but otherwise a dead end. Can we please hurry up and replace it with an open-source Nomad clone?

IMO Kubernetes is not going anywhere. People are jumping to it in huge numbers. It's very hot. It has sane architecture in my opinion. I'd say it has awesome architecture and I have great respects to the ones responsible for it. They've got very quality foundations. Kubernetes is new Linux. You expected to know Linux and Git, now you'll be expected to know Kubernetes if you're developer.

It's not going anywhere in the sense that it's this decade's XML fad. In 20 years people will be whining about their legacy system running Kubernetes, and how it's a nightmare.

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#42

Post by evol262 »

CameronNemo wrote: post #32
hujun wrote: post #28

the problem I have with k8s or whole concept of "cloud native" is it almost ONLY focus on web based application, if your application is not HTTP based or "stateless", it is very hard to run or design to be "cloud native" , specially in a managed k8s service(like eks/aks).

Can you tell me what specific challenges you've had with deploying non-HTTP services using Kubernetes? Many features are http-centric, but others seem fairly agnostic to me. What kind of non-http services are we talking about anyway?

Deploying them is easy. Figuring out the correct incantations to bind a load balancer or ingress port to redis/kafka/mysql/whatever and/or expose them in some way other than "let the ingress figure out the host from headers/SNI and map to some thing in the Service" is somewhat less than intuitive.

Sure, you could argue that you shouldn't expose backend services like that without an API endpoint at all, because one application->one namespace, or you could use a service mesh/consul to expose it to the things that need it, but it's an entirely different mindset from "I have a postgres cluster in public/private cloud"

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#43

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

boloust wrote: post #20
embik wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question was did they remove support for docker. They have not. Have they not? Note that the GP asked for GKE specifically. The support page I linked to literally says so: > GKE will stop supporting node images that use Docker as the runtime in GKE version 1.24 and later Removing dockershim removed the existing support for docker, because docker does not support CRI (Container Runtime Interface), the API requir…

Saying "Kubernetes has removed support for Docker" is incredibly misleading at best, and less charitably, is just plainly wrong. While it's true that 1.24 does not support docker as the specific container runtime that's directly used by Kubernetes itself, this has approximately zero impact on how the vast majority of beginners would use Kubernetes, as out of the box you're still able to run docker containers. Probabl…

> as out of the box you're still able to run docker containers.

No, you're able to run containers from images produced by docker provided it exports them in OCI format. At no point does k8s see anything to do with docker. Saying docker when you mean container or container image is incredibly misleading at best, and less charitably, is just plainly wrong.

Edit: Actually, it looks like if you want to add docker it's easy - https://kubernetes.io/docs/setup/production-environment/cont... - but you would have to install that support since it is not included out of the box.

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#44

Post by jasongi »

motoxpro wrote: post #39
dingleberry420 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's laughable to think every small company has infra/DevOps/platform teams. Also, in general, it's very useful to know the platform your software is going to be deployed to, so that you can design the software with those constraints in mind.

I'm just confused why a small company would allocate ~20% (at least) of their engineering hours to maintaining something like this? The 20% number comes from updating containers, checking for security vulnerabilities, rotating secrets, monitoring health, re-deploying after an outage, documenting build processes, creating CI/CD pipelines, writing YAML, etc. etc. I just don't see why you would do that when you could pa…

Managed Kubernetes (e.g GKE) is a hosted service, just a very flexible one. There is a gap between everything runs on Heroku and Big Enough to have a DevOps team that is pretty large. You tend to outgrow heroku pretty quick if your app has much complexity at all.

Used to work somewhere that just used some VPSes instead of managed hosting. That 20% time was spent on debugging OS issues, disk space issues, OS package updates, downtime needed to increase instance sizing, documenting (read: not actually documenting just leaving it up to the next person) how to rebuild the environment etc etc.

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#45

Post by dingleberry420 »

motoxpro wrote: post #39
dingleberry420 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's laughable to think every small company has infra/DevOps/platform teams. Also, in general, it's very useful to know the platform your software is going to be deployed to, so that you can design the software with those constraints in mind.

I'm just confused why a small company would allocate ~20% (at least) of their engineering hours to maintaining something like this? The 20% number comes from updating containers, checking for security vulnerabilities, rotating secrets, monitoring health, re-deploying after an outage, documenting build processes, creating CI/CD pipelines, writing YAML, etc. etc. I just don't see why you would do that when you could pa…

Same reason you would deploy to plain old servers. Your stuff has got to run somewhere. And (Google hosted) kubernetes solves a lot of issues for you out of the box, which you would otherwise have to solve eventually anyway. And it takes basically no additional maintenance, if you use a mature managed service.

You can have your developers manually copy paste files to a server, which is great while it works, but it's far better to have an automated process. At that point it's not really much more work, in fact I'd argue it's less, to pick docker + kubernetes than any of the alternatives.

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#46

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

vbezhenar wrote: post #23
rschachte wrote: post #15

I’ve been working on a Kubernetes cluster for my home network. I know a lot of people hate on Kubernetes, but it’s pretty cool and not too bad to even get started from scratch with Kubeadm. I think the constant thought in the back of my mind is… Docker containers and Nginx is definitely enough for my needs. At work, it’s a different story, but more most things, it can be over kill.

My biggest issue with Kubernetes is huge costs of running it. It's 3 servers with 4 GB RAM. It's almost $100/month just for Kubernetes alone. And you need one load balancer for control nodes which is another $25 for my hoster. And you need second load balancer for production workloads which is another $25. So you have to pay $150/month for the privilege of using Kubernetes. And they double your costs for your applica…

You don't actually need all that. If the competition is a single $5 machine with no redundancy, you can just run a single node cluster.

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#47

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

EddySchauHai wrote: post #33
deckard1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you're at the size of needing K8S, you can afford a devops/cloud engineering team. To OP's point, this seems to be a trend among corporate blogs. Targeting devs with irrelevant content. A few weeks back I remember seeing a "SOC 2 for devs" blog article and was really scratching my head. That's not the level that devs work at, at all. If you're paying six figure salaries to devs to sit around all day worrying about…

What’s SOC 2? Security Operations Center?

it's an audit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_and_Organization_Cont...

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#48

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

ForHackernews wrote: post #14

Kubernetes was a clever ploy to trick cloud providers into abstracting themselves into irrelevance, but otherwise a dead end. Can we please hurry up and replace it with an open-source Nomad clone?

> replace it with an open-source Nomad clone?

Nomad is open source; why clone it?

Re: Kubernetes for Developers Who Know How to Develop

#50

Post by dogecoinbase »

cheriot wrote: post #22
daenz wrote: post #17

I'm going to post my unsolicited opinion about K8s here, as an SWE+SRE who used it heavily for about 1.5 years on GCP. It's a very cool system. I completely understand why people half-jokingly call it a "distributed operating system." It does a lot of things related to the lifecycles of various state (secrets, storage, config, deployments, etc). However, I believe it goes way too far into putting infrastructure into…

> Things that exist in most modern clouds are being reinvented in K8s. My more optimistic view is that vendor specific APIs are being standardized. Initial implementations have their issues, but as more people use them the cloud vendors will improve their offering.

Uniform abstractions are necessarily leaky -- the adoption of the k8s standardization, such as it is, papers over implementation details that serious operators require visibility into.
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