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At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

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Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I can see how fleecing the casuals slowly is probably a better long-term strategy, that will ultimately extract more money from them, than doing it quickly, draining their bankroll, which may stop them from playing or get them to play less consistently. This is exactly correct. This is why it’s difficult to build and sustain a plo8/nlo8 ecology online or live. The good players just clean out the casuals so quic…

What's a good resource for learning GTO play? I used to be a decent small to medium stakes player, studied a few 2+2 books, that kind of thing, but haven't played much in the past decade or so. Don't have any plans to get back into it seriously, but wouldn't mind getting to the point where I could sit down at a random NL100 or 200 B&M table and have an at least even expectation.

Let me start off by saying that GTO is not the panacea some folks want it to be. It helps find some new lines for sure, it is really good at short stack problems, it helps a lot with starting hand ranges, and it is quite good for hu play.

All that said, most gto output assumes that your opponent is also playing gto. This is usually not the case, especially live. You can node lock in solvers to address this, but that’s a bit of a dark art since you have to assign unknown ranges to villain’s range — it’s just your best guess.

All that said, gto is a great mental exercise, and it has definitely improved my game.

> What's a good resource for learning GTO play?

Play optimal poker 1 and 2 by brokos. Good intro.

Modern poker theory by Acevedo for a little more advanced stuff.

Jonathon little has YT vids with some gto breakdown for hand analysis. He’s not a gto specialist, but he has one or more on his staff (iirc, Acevedo is/was one). His videos are on the simple side and are largely aimed at 1/3 and 2/5 live players, but it’s a soft intro.

Mariano poker on YT has improved a ton over the past few years. He seems to be relatively balanced while still exploiting when possible. His early vids show how to play (and not play) at lower stakes and win, at least in California games.

If you can see any stream with Garrett Adelstein, I would watch it. Mostly hustler live and live at the bike. He plays deep stack, and is a poker god among mere mortals.

> wouldn't mind getting to the point where I could sit down at a random NL100 or 200 B&M table and have an at least even expectation

If you were a winning online player before, you are currently +ev at 1/2 or 1/3 live tables.

The play is atrocious.

I will add that exploitative play is ideal at these stakes, and most gto is largely wasted.

It won’t be until some B&M 5/10 games and many 10/25 games and higher (usually with many pros) that you will see balanced play, although there is no small amount of exploitative play when whales are in the game.

Best of luck!

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#42
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to stop playing. Kasparov (59) still plays here and there and he's still pretty great. Anand is 52 and is 13th in the world. Chess requires a crazy amount of time invested and you're likely going to stop, and definitely slow, making gains at a certain age. Lots of people play chess for reasons other than becoming the world champion (since obviously most won't). That said I play online chess too much an…

Quoted post unavailable.

Being snarky is strickly against hn guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Alao sarcasm is generally disliked, usually downvoted.

Disclaimer: not a mod, just want people to be nice to each other. NZer, so I sarc myself, but inappropriate on HN.

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#43
post #31

The comments here are so heavily jargon laden that I have no idea what I was reading.. gto, plo, nlo, then with numbers behind them, etc.. Is there a glossary to understand those terms?

NL or PLO/PL with numbers means the amount of money you bring on the table, typically 100x the big blind. So NL200 means a games with blinds $1/$2 (blinds are the obligatory bets at the beginning of a game so that there is something to play for).

On certain sites the same game would be named NL $1/$2, some players might refer to it as 1/2 NL (pronounce one-two NL), but it's the same NL200 (sometimes 200NL) game.

In limit games (with fixed bets) you would usually give the amount of the blinds. And some games have more complicated betting structures, for example with antes, but let's not get into that.

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#44

Highly recommend Doyle's "Poker Wisdom of a Champion" for a throwback look at the wild days of poker in the 60's. The story of the tennis match prop bet alone was worth it. Let the dog die!

Other recommandation :

- Doyle Brunson - My 50 most memorable hands (better to know the rules to appreciate it)

- The Professor, the Banker and the Suicide King (great story about how Andy Beal challenged the best players at the time in ultra-high stakes games)

- Barry Greenstein - Ace on the river (better to buy a paper edition because of the pictures, and ignore the strategy parts)

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#45
post #3

For those of you who would like to learn the basics of poker, Johns Hopkins offers an online course: https://hopkinspokercourse.com/ MIT OCW also has a course on poker theory: https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/15-s50-poker-theory-and-analytic...

The book “no limit theory and practice” continues to be the most valuable poker book I’ve read. That said about 80% of that book and 95% of anything written about poker before about 2019 is irrelevant to today’s games. People never intended to play game theory optimal in the past; it was a war of “leveling” your opponent into making the wrong move. You would make money by playing an “exploitive strategy” meaning, you…

In my opinion the most valuable book that is still relevant from pre-19 is Mathematics of Poker. But proper poker study should come from playing around with solvers, ideally with somebody who can guide you through not making the most common mistakes.

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#47
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's sad to see champions giving up chess in their 30s but I can also see the desire to leave on a high note, before you've declined, and also spend your life on other things- you've already shown you're the best so why invest all that time and effort into keeping your title? There's definitely diminishing returns.

If you're talking about competitive players, they don't give up, they stop competing professionally and usually go on to teach. Competitive chess is a gruelling full time job.

Exactly. It's interesting to see how poker seems to differ.

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#48
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're talking about competitive players, they don't give up, they stop competing professionally and usually go on to teach. Competitive chess is a gruelling full time job.

Exactly. It's interesting to see how poker seems to differ.

Well, there's a lot more money in poker.

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#49
post #9

It’s funny that the two examples used to illustrate his play (the 10 2) stories are examples of him making extremely bad reads on his opponent and bad beating them. I can only assume that’s him massaging the narrative a bit to help him win in the future, cause it isn’t great poker playing.

These hands are so memorable and well-known not because they’re great reads, but simply because it’s so unlikely to win back to back championships with the same lousy cards.

Whether those particular hands are examples of great poker doesn’t really matter because poker isn’t really about any single hand, but performance over many hands. In both cases, Brunson outlasted the competition and whittled away his opponents’ stacks until he had them against the ropes and increased the odds that they would make a desperate move. Those are examples of great poker playing.

Re: At 88, Poker Legend Doyle Brunson Is Still Bluffing. Or Is He?

#50
post #12
post #9

It’s funny that the two examples used to illustrate his play (the 10 2) stories are examples of him making extremely bad reads on his opponent and bad beating them. I can only assume that’s him massaging the narrative a bit to help him win in the future, cause it isn’t great poker playing.

I think inspiring a bunch of amateurs to make plays with mostly garbage is a great example of a +EV play. Additionally with two pair heads up you need to get it in, the stuff about making reads gives amateur players the license to go nuts because they feel like it, again +EV. Dolly knew the odds better than almost anyone for a very long time, objectively we've learned a lot about poker in the last few years, and it's…

I haven't played a lot in a while, but my first thought is what you say in the second line: you're the big stack, you're heads up at the end of a tournament, you want to keep pressure on your opponent, and then once you even hit something like two-pair, seems like you want to make them have even less if they fold, or get a good shot at ending the game if they call all-in.

Is this outdated in general? From the talk below about GTO-and-heads-up is the assumption that it'd be dangerous now to assume anyone who's still in at that point doesn't have something better than you?

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