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The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

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Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#51

Post by danmaz74 »

riffraff wrote: post #44
viandante wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, but those outside forces are really strong. I had to fight only to study abroad, which is seen as a waste of time and possible drawback on your cv (because you spent time studying abroad instead of studying for real...). The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. But than that is also not useful for Italy. So, you see the problem?

how does B follow from A? The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. there is by definition one simple way not to sound like someone complaining about outside forces: don't complain. If you start by the assumption that it's impossible to do so in country X you have already decided to be in the "it's not my fault" camp.

Couldn't agree more. Is it difficult to create a successful startup in Italy? Yes. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. I'm trying with mine and I'm pretty confident I'll do it in a few more months.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#52

Post by pdelgallego »

phatbyte wrote: post #30
pdelgallego wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iberian fellow here. How do you manage to funded your company in the US?

I got incorporated in the US. Not funded as in VC funding.

Sorry, my bad. As Alberto pointed in his comment, I was asking about how to incorporate a company in the USA when you are not a USA citizen (neither a legal resident)?

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#53

Post by luriel »

phatbyte wrote: post #13

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and ex…

> They get a degree and expect to get a job the next day just because.

Yes, and what is more, they expect to magically get a job even if they got a degree in Minoan pottery, or post-modern French feminist theory.

But to be fair this issue is not limited to this countries, even in the US there are plenty of people who believe that if they got a degree that somehow magically entitles them to a job.

Also, see this picture:

http://marginalrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Edu...

Note: Not really relevant to this comment, but I'm Spanish, but left many years ago, and I have zero intention of going back.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#54

Post by ilnico »

program wrote: post #14

I am italian, I have a full-time job in an IT private company, I own an house and I know why you can't create a startup in Italy: money, burocracy and taxes. In Italy banks or companies will never invest money in your startup if you can't cover at least all the money you need in 4/5 years. If you dare to found a new company and you fail then your life is destroyed. You are tagged as "cattivo pagatore" (bad payer) and…

Respectfully disagree, up to a point. You can create startups in Italy (people do, and some actually succeed). True, bureaucracy and taxes hit you hard (but marginal corporate taxes in the USA are high nonetheless, aren't they?). True, if you are flagged as a bad payer, you end up in a very difficult situation (I guess that if you have a bad credit history in the USA, they will not put red carpets in front of you).

But just saying "it can't be done" makes it impossible for you to do it. Period.

Me: working as an associate in a VC firm. Yes, operating in Italy. And yes, it is difficult, but we (as a startup community) are creating momentum and we can see something happening.

Bottom line: banks do not invest money in your company, they lend you money, that's why they require a positive cash flow NOW.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#56

Post by temp5678 »

joedogboi wrote: post #22
tomelders wrote: post #11

I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries have the same excuses. There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio. Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my company (which failed) in th…

Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they can. It would be selfish to create a star…

I don't think Confucianism is sufficient to explain it. They don't feel a loss of control because they're beholden to their families. That's a little silly.

It's really mostly the other pillar of Chinese culture; Taoism. The two belief systems over the centuries go through cycles of being influential and Taoism in the new capitalistic China is re-emergent.

Taoism is really a lot about individualism, but it's also about going with the flow of life. It's called "following the Tao" and is very fatalistic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#57

Post by pjin »

temp5678 wrote: post #56
joedogboi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they can. It would be selfish to create a star…

I don't think Confucianism is sufficient to explain it. They don't feel a loss of control because they're beholden to their families. That's a little silly. It's really mostly the other pillar of Chinese culture; Taoism. The two belief systems over the centuries go through cycles of being influential and Taoism in the new capitalistic China is re-emergent. Taoism is really a lot about individualism, but it's also abo…

Confucianism is historically the heart of Chinese culture. Taoism has never been as singularly influential in China as Confucianism has, nor is its "resurgence" sweeping away Confucianism. Assigning the idea of e.g. fatalism to "mostly Taoism" is also inaccurate. As far as popular beliefs go, Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist beliefs have mixed together in the past centuries when we're talking about the influence of these set of teachings on the Chinese population (at least before 1949). Categorizing Value X as belonging to System A is too simple.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#58

Post by davidw »

oscardelben wrote: post #8
davidw wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day. It's difficult pretty much anywhere. And even in areas where there are lots of good people (SV), you then have to pay a lot. There are plenty of talented people in Italy, that is not what I would consider the major problem.

You have a point here, but due to the distribution of our (small) cities, we don't have many meetups here, for example. I love Italy's, just not for working.

Other European countries have similar urbanization levels/curves. And the most 'concentrated' country, the one with most of its people in cities, is, surprisingly, Australia. And they don't seem to have a ton of startups either...

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#59

Post by davidw »

riffraff wrote: post #44
viandante wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, but those outside forces are really strong. I had to fight only to study abroad, which is seen as a waste of time and possible drawback on your cv (because you spent time studying abroad instead of studying for real...). The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. But than that is also not useful for Italy. So, you see the problem?

how does B follow from A? The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. there is by definition one simple way not to sound like someone complaining about outside forces: don't complain. If you start by the assumption that it's impossible to do so in country X you have already decided to be in the "it's not my fault" camp.

There are two aspects to this, that people are missing:

1) On a personal level, you absolutely must be optimistic and try and do everything you can to create a company if that's what you want, but also to push the system to change and improve.

2) Statistically speaking, it's pretty obvious that messy taxes, bureaucracy and so on, do have negative effects at the margin, so taken as a whole, they're absolutely a valid thing to complain about.

The key distinction is to stay as far as possible from the poisonous ponderings about how it's not possible to do anything and it's all stacked against me and blah blah blah, which is all just a big excuse not to try.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#60

Post by bprieto »

pdelgallego wrote: post #52
phatbyte wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got incorporated in the US. Not funded as in VC funding.

Sorry, my bad. As Alberto pointed in his comment, I was asking about how to incorporate a company in the USA when you are not a USA citizen (neither a legal resident)?

You can do it online. Just Google delaware+company and you will find plenty of shop that do this.
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