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Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

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Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#131

Post by smileysteve »

MerelyMortal wrote: post #104
nl wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hadn't realised until very recently that most hydrogen produced comes from coal: https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/explain... Most of the time it isn't a green fuel at all and is just a way to keep mining coal.

Electrolysis powered by nuclear energy seems very clean and green to me. With the added benefit of not requiring an overhaul of the electrical grid to be able to handle everyone charging their cars.

Instead of overhauling the electrical grid, gas stations just have to maintain cryogenic pressure tanks?

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#132

Post by dylan604 »

solarkraft wrote: post #99
bell-cot wrote: post #67

> Automotive giant Ford is shoring up its battery supply chain — partly by importing lower-cost, iron-based batteries popular in China — as it sprints to increase electric vehicle production. Old geezer's perspective: Back in its heyday, Ford Motor was one of the most vertically integrated (large manufacturing) companies in the world. They owned and operated their own fleet of ore carriers (cargo ships), to haul iron…

> Current-day Ford Motor having to go begging to China - for a major, iron-based component needed to produce more cars - that is laughable, and beyond pathetic. They're lucky China is answering. They're incredibly late to the EV game; considering that they're doing remarkably well.

>They're incredibly late to the EV game; considering that they're doing remarkably well.

When you're not the trailblazer, it's easy to make catch-up progress to those that went before you in much much less time. Why this is constantly a source of amazement is funny to me. By the time Ford got involved, the path was no longer a beaten down path, it was fully paved 8-lane highway. Instead trying to figure out how to make an electrified car, they just took all of the learning before them and then turned it into something fancy. While Tesla is "working" on self-driving and not doing well with it, Ford said, nah, we'll just turn our batteries into a generator for the home. They built an actual truck that looks like the same truck everyone is used to and say here it is as an electric. That's easy to do when you are riding coat tails

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#133

Post by SigmundA »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

A Tesla model 3 hypermiled like this Mirai got 606 miles [1]. The Mira's normal range is about 400 miles.

> you don't have the battery problem (at all).

The Mirai still has a small lithium battery like a hybrid since fuel cells cannot put enough instantaneous power (only 128kw and has start up time) for normal driving they need a buffer battery that is recharged by the fuel cell. Since this battery is so small it can't benefit as much from regen like a normal BEV and has pretty poor performance as well (182hp). All this in a car that weighs more than an equivalent BEV due to heavy 10,000 psi hydrogen tanks and complexity with the fuel cell and buffer battery.

I personally believe hydrogen is a dead end for automobiles, the end to end efficiency is much worse (creating and compressing hydrogen) vs just charging a battery not to mention the issues of storing a transporting hydrogen safely [2].

1. https://electrek.co/2018/05/27/tesla-model-3-range-new-hyper...

2. https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news/stories/2019/08/hydroge...

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#134

Post by dylan604 »

bell-cot wrote: post #128
cumshitpiss wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with trading with China?

Beyond the political issues already noted... - "We must travel to the most-distant place in the world, and the only source of $Thing, which we cannot survive without!" That sounds great, if you're writing epic fantasy quest stories. If you're talking supply chain management... maybe there is something profoundly wrong with your company? - Even if the CCP would never dream of squeezing Ford's battery life-line...the b…

>My old World Atlas suggests that shipping by rail is probably not an option.

Is that the same atlas that says there's not an option for rail from UK to France as well?

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#135

Post by wowokay »

pokepim wrote: post #121
clouddrover wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China arbitrarily bans trade when it wants to "punish" nations: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/china-turns-to-lobsters-wine-and... China has made it clear that it is an unreliable business partner. It is a mistake to do business with nations that don't share your values, as Russia is also currently demonstrating.

[flagged]

What the heck? Do you somehow only watch the super opinionated stuff on both Fox and CNN, giving you polar opposite trash talk from both sides of the aisle? Lol

If anything The first one wasn’t a white supremacist because “he had alot of Mexican friends” and the other isn’t cozying up to a dictator because our gas supply offset wasn’t shifty to Saudi backed oil supplies, not to mention all his work his son has done with sketchy characters that he tries to distance himself from.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#136

Post by SigmundA »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

LFP Also has much more cycle life and can be cycled 0-100% with much less degradation than NMC meaning a much longer lasting battery. The LFP Tesla it is recommended to charge to 100% always rather than only doing 80% except on long trips on the NMC Teslas.

LFP is also safer with much less chance for thermal runaway. So safer, cheaper, longer lasting, easier material sourcing, only downside is lower energy density (about 20% hit for same weight) but there is a huge effort to improve that.

You can LFP's pretty cheap now for home backup or RV use. I replaced my RV house batteries with LFP for 4 times the usable capacity in half the weight of my old lead acid for about 3 times the cost. You can get 48v 19" rack batteries very cheap for power backup uses. I think LFP's are going to take over most uses in including cheap commuter automobiles.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#137

Post by princeb »

clouddrover wrote: post #97
cumshitpiss wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with trading with China?

China arbitrarily bans trade when it wants to "punish" nations: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/china-turns-to-lobsters-wine-and... China has made it clear that it is an unreliable business partner. It is a mistake to do business with nations that don't share your values, as Russia is also currently demonstrating.

America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#138

Post by CyanBird »

phtrivier wrote: post #95
cumshitpiss wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with trading with China?

China spent the last two years demonstrating that they're "fair weather partners" when it comes to trade. And winter is coming. So obviously it's not bad _per se_ to rely on China ; but if it's not possible to diversify sourcing, this is begging for a disaster next time whatever geopolitic hits the fan.

> Fairweather

What do you even mean, it wasn't them whom started the whole tradewar... It was the US gov

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#139

Post by ZeroGravitas »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are in fact better than gasoline. A fact that I think often gets overlooked.

But note, they do actually have batteries, similar to ICE serial hybrids.

They key thing of course, is that building lots of batteries is not a 'problem', and it's lack of being a problem is exactly why BEVs are better than fuel-cell hydrogen cars for basically everything, except maybe long distance air transport.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#140

Post by princeb »

iasay wrote: post #39
adrianN wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laptop batteries and EV batteries have a completely different performance profile. The data we have suggests that the battery will retain 80% of its maximum capacity for about as long as the rest of the car is expected to survive.

You miss the point. Most people don’t buy new cars. Most people buy second hand vehicles. They now risk degraded batteries and a huge incidental cost. My car cost me £5000 second hand. The cheapest EV battery replacement here is £12,500. I could write that car off twice for the price of a battery and still have enough money to go on holiday. When you buy the bottom end of the second hand EV market which is realistica…

> 80% battery that’s 128 miles of range

i know i am not an average user but that's like a month of driving for me.

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