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Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

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Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#61

Post by rightbyte »

iasay wrote: post #53
rightbyte wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user Maybe if that is your only car. As a commuter or grocery car it would be fine.

Why would you want a car that can be used only for those tasks leaving you to seek other forms of transport for leisure and family? The main positive factor of vehicle ownership is destination and route flexibility and if you trade that away then the advantage is gone.

The main cost for cheap 2nd hand cars is the fuel in my experience. So you can have a cheap fuel commuter car and a "real" car for trips and towing your boat.

Requires parking for two cars though. But since we are talking about an EV it requires a house anyways since most apartments have no charging.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#62

Post by bonzini »

cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

10 kWh is less than 40 miles / 60 km. It's good enough for grocery shopping but it would be akin to always running with your fuel light on and with 1/20th of the fueling stations (ok you would charge at nighttime). I wouldn't be comfortable with that unless I am going to pay for it half of an equivalent ICE car.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#63

Post by Tade0 »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

If my recent gas mileage figure after 1h of mixed driving is to be believed, I could get to within 10% of that figure in my Toyota hybrid.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#64

Post by rvdginste »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #20
cjdell wrote: post #13

I'm not sure why we aren't making EVs with small but upgradeable batteries. Like for example a $20k car with a 10kWh "good enough for now" starter battery that can be bought today. Still good enough for 90% of trips and upgradable to 50kWh with additional after market battery modules should the user decide. As simple as upgrading the RAM on an (old) laptop.

I’d love a car with a tiny battery for 99% of the time when I’m just driving locally and the ability to have an extra, large battery that can be slotted in when I want to make a longer trip. With only the short range battery most of the time, my car’s weight is low and efficiency high. Maybe I could keep that battery in my house and use it to store solar electricity most of the time. It seems like it should be possib…

I don't know if any company is exploring what you are mentioning, but battery swapping for electrical scooters (Gogoro) is in common use in Taiwan. Instead of you charge your scooter, you drive to a battery swap station and exchange your empty battery for a full one. see [1].

But some companies are also investigating battery swap stations for cars. So, you might not be able to swap a short-range battery with a long-range battery yourself, but I imagine that would be possible with those battery swap stations. See [2]. Battery swap stations means that you have full range again for the same time it takes to fill a car with gas. But obviously, you need to have enough of those stations to make it usable. And if every car brand is gonna create its own mechanism for battery swapping, then that would probably only be interesting in city areas where it's worthwhile for the manufacturer to run those stations.

[1] https://www.electrive.com/2022/01/18/battery-swapping-statio... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61310513

Edit: typo.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#65

Post by qwytw »

iasay wrote: post #53
rightbyte wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 128 miles of range. Which is near useless for the average user Maybe if that is your only car. As a commuter or grocery car it would be fine.

Why would you want a car that can be used only for those tasks leaving you to seek other forms of transport for leisure and family? The main positive factor of vehicle ownership is destination and route flexibility and if you trade that away then the advantage is gone.

Some families have to 2, 3 or even 4 cars. So it might not be such a bad idea.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#66

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

Due to crazy car prices I was able to sell my 2021 Tesla for the same price as a 2022 factory new Tesla with lfp battery. I’m really excited to get it and be able to charge to 100% all the time and also have a much longer battery life at the same time. The previous battery was a nightmare of having to micromanage the battery charge for long trips and constant worry about if the battery pack was going to crap out after the warranty.

I think the car is a bit slower with the lfp but I really don’t care.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#67

Post by bell-cot »

> Automotive giant Ford is shoring up its battery supply chain — partly by importing lower-cost, iron-based batteries popular in China — as it sprints to increase electric vehicle production.

Old geezer's perspective: Back in its heyday, Ford Motor was one of the most vertically integrated (large manufacturing) companies in the world. They owned and operated their own fleet of ore carriers (cargo ships), to haul iron ore from the mines to the steel mill that was part of their all-Ford integrated manufacturing complex. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_River_Rouge_Complex - though Wikipedia barely scratches the surface on this. ) Back in the early 90's, I knew a couple guys who had spent their careers working on those iron ore carriers.

Current-day Ford Motor having to go begging to China - for a major, iron-based component needed to produce more cars - that is laughable, and beyond pathetic. In a dark, miserable sort of way, if you care about America or its future.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#68

Post by speedgoose »

smaudet wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #4

This is huge. To date, Tesla has been the only non-Chinese manufacturer talking iron. LFP is often touted for being cheaper than NMC, but given growing insecurity around battery-grade nickel supplies, using the far-more-prevalent iron and phosphate isn’t just about cheaper cars. It’s about having cars to sell in the first place. With respect to range anxiety, pretty much every EV in the 200 to 300-mile range is sold…

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

If range was the only important thing, we would drive Citroen 2CV with spare cans of gaz in the trunk. But we don’t, and very few cares about the Mirai.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#69

Post by martin_bech »

snotrockets wrote: post #60
smaudet wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars are putting gasoline vehicles and electric to shame: https://www.timesnownews.com/auto/car-news/article/toyota-mi... Of course, you can't readily buy or charge one yet, but you don't have the battery problem (at all).

There were plans in Japan for wide use of hydrogen as the fuel of the future. Japanese car manufacturers aligned on that, but weren’t keen on building the necessary infrastructure. You could lease a hydrogen fuel cell car in CA. There was even a lot of state incentives if you did. But very few fueling stations (iirc, only two in the whole Bay Area)

Because the infrastructure needed would be bonkers, and creating fuelibg stations is not really a solved problem. You also loose a big amount of energy converting from electric to hydrogen and back. The cars themselves almost always have low storage because the tanks are very big. Hydrogen car performance is also a lot lower then pure EV.

Re: Ford's answer to EV supply chain hell: Cheaper batteries

#70

Post by tedk-42 »

bell-cot wrote: post #67

> Automotive giant Ford is shoring up its battery supply chain — partly by importing lower-cost, iron-based batteries popular in China — as it sprints to increase electric vehicle production. Old geezer's perspective: Back in its heyday, Ford Motor was one of the most vertically integrated (large manufacturing) companies in the world. They owned and operated their own fleet of ore carriers (cargo ships), to haul iron…

> Current-day Ford Motor having to go begging to China - for a major, iron-based component needed to produce more cars - that is laughable, and beyond pathetic. In a dark, miserable sort of way, if you care about America or its future.

Sounds similar to Boeing where accounting for personal gain (promotions / raises) of upper managers and executives took effect over the long term advantage of the company.

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