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The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

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Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#31

Post by albertogh »

phatbyte wrote: post #13

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and ex…

I'm Spanish and my GF is Portuguese. I can vouch for everything you said.

As an enterpreneur, I work really hard every day to meet my goals. 14 hours days are not unusual to me and working some 3-4 hours a day on weekends is the norm. When others know I work from home, they either assume that I just sit browsing Facebook all day and I'm really just collecting unemployment for the government or that I'm a lazy asshat whose parents pay for everything.

A year and a half ago, I was lucky enough to be featured by the most popular regional newspaper (~1M people live in this area) because of some work I did. A lot of the people who know me IRL congratulated me by it, but you should have seen some of the comments in the newspaper's website: they were incredibly vitriolic, calling me a lot of things like "lucky code butcher" or suggesting I was friends with someone in the newspaper because what I did was not newsworthy.

Combine that with the absurdly high unemployment rate, the incredibly high amount of people who prefer collecting 600€ of unemployment rather than working for 1000€ and the ridiculously high taxes we have to pay (an employee taking home ~1300€ a month would cost me around ~2700€) and you end up with the nightmare for startups we have here.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#32

Post by vanni »

Italy does not suck at all at the startup game. You English-only speaking people simply don't often hear about us because we speak Italian on Italian Startup Scene (http://www.facebook.com/groups/italianstartups/) so our plans to conquer the world with our startups remain hidden to you. ;)

Antonio, come to our (why not yours yet?) group and see what 3248 Italian startuppers are currently doing to improve the situation of Italy.

And after Berlusconi's exit from politics, Italy will be a better place for everyone.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#33

Post by _delirium »

bdesimone wrote: post #26

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that ta…

On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g. furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more like €1000-1300 here).

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#34

Post by albertogh »

BSousa wrote: post #24
phatbyte wrote: post #13

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and ex…

Hey Portuguese here as well and I can vouch for just about everything phatbyte said as well. Anyone that has a little bit of success, in the eyes of 95% of the population did it either by a) corruption b) stealing c) abusing people/employees. People just don't believe hard work is a key to success. Heck, even when I change jobs for a better pay my own parents complain about it, they expect me to die in the same compa…

You've reminded me the time when I decided to leave my job and become a freelance. My parents wouldn't stop telling me I was crazy for leaving a nice job for the uncertainty of being your own boss.

I'm not in PT right now, but GF lives in Porto and I get to spend quite a bit of time there. Drop me an email (it's in my profile) and we'll catch a beer some time.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#35

Post by toyg »

Symmetry wrote: post #16
oscardelben wrote: post #3

I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing. Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to open a business here if they can avoid it. I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant. I thin…

Regarding taxes, I was surprised to read today that corportations in Italy, if they actually complied with every law, would be paying a 68.6% tax rate. Still not as bad as a few countries in Africa where the offical tax rates are well over 100%, though. http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/ita...

That's part of the reason why they actually don't pay any of it. Tax evasion is widespread and in the open; the government periodically reacts with amnesties, which is the catholic thing to do, right? All is forgiven, let's try again! But what are you going to do, knowing there is going to be an amnesty sooner or later? You just don't pay, of course. So the State is not getting enough money, and they have to create a new tax to cover the shortfall, which will increase the official rate but that's ok, because almost nobody is paying it anyway, not even your main politician for 17 years, and he's fucking rich.

This makes the real tax rate between 5 and 20%, depending on the specific amnesty you're going to enjoy, how much you feel like paying, and how good is your accountant.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#36

Post by juliano_q »

metachris wrote: post #19
oscardelben wrote: post #3

I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing. Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to open a business here if they can avoid it. I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant. I thin…

I live in Austria and have to pay about 40 to 50% tax on any income. At least I know it's going towards things such as free universities, free healthcare, unemployment insurances for everyone. Makes the pill a bit easier to swallow.

Looks like very good compared to Brazil, where we pay around 40% and still have to pay for private healthcare and education because the public services are terrible.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#37

Post by phatbyte »

BSousa wrote: post #24
phatbyte wrote: post #13

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and ex…

Hey Portuguese here as well and I can vouch for just about everything phatbyte said as well. Anyone that has a little bit of success, in the eyes of 95% of the population did it either by a) corruption b) stealing c) abusing people/employees. People just don't believe hard work is a key to success. Heck, even when I change jobs for a better pay my own parents complain about it, they expect me to die in the same compa…

I'm currently living in Lisbon, but I got to Braga very often. Let's have a HN meetup hehe

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#38

Post by vimalg2 »

I'm Indian and the first thing i did was look at that bar chart about people's attitudes towards 'fate'.

No surprise to me, India ranks highest on the fatalism curve - 80% of us believe we are helpless to choose our path to success.

...which is fine. But when i see kids here, from the next generation as well, who somehow have this attitude, it breaks my heart.

For a start, i'd advocate teaching Critical thinking skills in our schools.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#39

Post by toyg »

Luc wrote: post #27
davidw wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day. It's difficult pretty much anywhere. And even in areas where there are lots of good people (SV), you then have to pay a lot. There are plenty of talented people in Italy, that is not what I would consider the major problem.

Italy has an education problem though. Only 1 in 10 have a higher education diploma. Among the 30-34 year olds, it's 20%, but this is still less than half what most northern European countries have (Ireland is top with 50%). [Source: IMF & Eurostat via my newspaper today.]

Italian university is... complicated. There are areas of excellence -- medicine, architecture, even engineering (!) -- but a lot of undergraduate courses are expected to run for more than 5 years, and that's a very long time for non-STEM stuff. The average length is much lower in other countries, and the format much more flexible.

And I say this as a serial drop-out who now lives abroad.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#40

Post by toyg »

_delirium wrote: post #33
bdesimone wrote: post #26

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that ta…

On #2, €1800/mo rent including utilities sounds pretty absurd! Is that in a particularly desirable city center, or with some unusual arrangement (e.g. furnished short-term rentals?). The Italians I know here in Copenhagen have mentioned rent prices closer to €700-900 for a 1-bd back in Italy, when complaining about how expensive Copenhagen is in comparison (€1800 would even be high for Copenhagen, though; it's more l…

It really depends which part of the country we're talking about. Some cities (Milan, Rome, Bologna, anywhere in Tuscany) are incredibly expensive.
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