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The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

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Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#21

Post by viandante »

italophil wrote: post #18
program wrote: post #14

I am italian, I have a full-time job in an IT private company, I own an house and I know why you can't create a startup in Italy: money, burocracy and taxes. In Italy banks or companies will never invest money in your startup if you can't cover at least all the money you need in 4/5 years. If you dare to found a new company and you fail then your life is destroyed. You are tagged as "cattivo pagatore" (bad payer) and…

You blaming it on outside forces (money, burocracy and taxes) just validates one of the points in the article. I am German, working some years for FIAT, and did my PhD in Italy, but left right after graduation for the US. The article perfectly summarizes the reasons I didn't want to stay and start something in Italy.

You are right, but those outside forces are really strong. I had to fight only to study abroad, which is seen as a waste of time and possible drawback on your cv (because you spent time studying abroad instead of studying for real...).

The only way not to sound like an Italian just complaining about outside forces is to leave the country. But than that is also not useful for Italy. So, you see the problem?

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#22

Post by joedogboi »

tomelders wrote: post #11

I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries have the same excuses. There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio. Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my company (which failed) in th…

Part of the Chinese belief of lack of control is the amazing amount of influence Confucian ideals still hold. How can one control one's destiny if they're beholden to their family, their elders and society. It's hard to be an innovator if individuality is discouraged. I'm not implying that Chinese men and women can't innovate, but I suspect they're disinclined to believe they can. It would be selfish to create a startup and risk failure which could jeopardize one's livelihood and therefore one's ability to continue the family. Also, failure would bring shame to the family. (There's a bit of stereotyping here, of course, and I'd love to hear from people who have spent time in Asia and could give me a more complete picture).

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#24

Post by BSousa »

phatbyte wrote: post #13

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and ex…

Hey

Portuguese here as well and I can vouch for just about everything phatbyte said as well. Anyone that has a little bit of success, in the eyes of 95% of the population did it either by a) corruption b) stealing c) abusing people/employees. People just don't believe hard work is a key to success. Heck, even when I change jobs for a better pay my own parents complain about it, they expect me to die in the same company I started working.

On another note, where care you in Portugal? If in the north/Porto, send me an email if you want to catch a beer. Always looking for same minded individuals for a chat.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#25

Post by keithpeter »

tomelders wrote: post #11

I really like that graph. I suspect the Chinese may well be right in their assumption that "success is outside of their control", but few other countries have the same excuses. There could be a case to be made that countries should monitor that metric very closely and work hard to improve their "Yes to No" ratio. Also, having lived and worked in Italy, my number 1 reason for setting up my company (which failed) in th…

http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php

Have a look at the Geert Hofstede Cultural Dimensions, the five dimensions may allow a richer explanation than the 'yes' and 'no' question. There is an over arching theory independent of local characteristics as well - might even be falsifiable (aka Popper)!

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#26

Post by bdesimone »

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy.

It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work.

1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that take five minutes in America, like getting residency in a state or setting up a bank account can take days if not weeks or months.

2) Taxes and rent are absurdly high compared to wages. I had a great job--and compared to my Italian born peers it really was--that earned 2,600Euro a month. My one bedroom apartment cost 1,400 Euro + 400 euro for utilities and taxes (and utilities is where you get taxed into oblivion).

3) Nepotism and "serving your own." True to what the article mentions, to get my job I had to go through 4-5 rounds of interviews. When I was chosen over the two other Italian candidates, they were blown away. How could they chose this foreigner over them? It didn't matter I was a better programmer, or an Italian citizen, or that I spoke Italian. I was American and they were Italian -- how could the employer possibly chosen me?

4) A cultural tolerance for being corrupt or sly and getting away with it. I'm generalizing some here, but I feel this to be true for the most part.

And, to those who speak Italian (sorry could not find the clip with subtitles), this is a wonderful scene related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8TZNxWixN8

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#27

Post by Luc »

davidw wrote: post #5
oscardelben wrote: post #3

I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing. Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to open a business here if they can avoid it. I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant. I thin…

> it's super hard to find talented people, and that makes a difference at the end of the day. It's difficult pretty much anywhere. And even in areas where there are lots of good people (SV), you then have to pay a lot. There are plenty of talented people in Italy, that is not what I would consider the major problem.

Italy has an education problem though. Only 1 in 10 have a higher education diploma. Among the 30-34 year olds, it's 20%, but this is still less than half what most northern European countries have (Ireland is top with 50%). [Source: IMF & Eurostat via my newspaper today.]

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#28

Post by oscardelben »

Symmetry wrote: post #16
oscardelben wrote: post #3

I agree about the mentality problem, though I think it's mostly due ignorance in general and values that are often toward the wrong thing. Regarding taxes, it's pretty ridiculous, I would never encourage people to open a business here if they can avoid it. I'm moving to the US next year and I can't wait to stop paying the ridiculous amount of money (in proportion of what I earn) that I pay now as a consultant. I thin…

Regarding taxes, I was surprised to read today that corportations in Italy, if they actually complied with every law, would be paying a 68.6% tax rate. Still not as bad as a few countries in Africa where the offical tax rates are well over 100%, though. http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/ita...

What's worse is that I never know exactly how much I'm going to pay (this is what my accountant tells me anyway).

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#29

Post by phatbyte »

bdesimone wrote: post #26

Very good post. I am a dual citizen of the United States and Italy, and though I grew up in America and consider myself culturally more American than Italian, I lived, studied and worked (as a developer) in Italy. It's difficult to describe the situation to an outsider, but I found Italy a beautiful place to live but a frustrating and difficult place to work. 1) Italian bureaucracy is maddening. Simple things that ta…

I completely agree with you, even if I'm from Portugal I understand it perfectly.

For instance, in order to get my SSN in portugal it took around 1-2 weeks. On the other hand, in the US I got my EIN in 5 minutes online.

Re: The Real Reason Italy Sucks at the Startup Game

#30

Post by phatbyte »

pdelgallego wrote: post #20
phatbyte wrote: post #13

Unfortunately this applies to Spain, Greece and my home country Portugal. South european countries have the same base mentality when it come to entrepreneurship, you either get mocked/ignored/stigmatized for failing or you get jealousy/ignored when you succeeded. Also, we don't have the mentality of "self-made man" and "go get it", most of our population expect everything from the government. They get a degree and ex…

Iberian fellow here. How do you manage to funded your company in the US?

I got incorporated in the US. Not funded as in VC funding.
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