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Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

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Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#191

Post by wizofaus »

jjice wrote: post #139
thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way and wound up completely exhausted in my career. Coming from web dev, I used to volunteer to dive into a Objective C repo to fix some random bug in a mobile app and then a week later my boss would ask me to build a big feature in that app. I'd spend a few weeks getting up to speed on the language and build the feature, and then I would never use what I learned again. My boss would ask me to di…

> Coming from web dev, I used to volunteer to dive into a Objective C repo to fix some random bug in a mobile app The thing about this is that this isn't just a language change, this is an ecosystem change. It's one thing to go from writing Python based web apps to Ruby based ones, because web dev has a lot of concepts that will apply no matter the language. Objective C might be something you can pick up no problem,…

I'd agree with that. I even think the difference between frontend JS development and backend JS development is bigger than, say, backend Java and JS development. But managers, even ones with tech backgrounds, tend to assume the language is the key skill. A good developer should be able to master a couple of different ecosystems given enough time but expecting them to constantly jump between them is never going to lead to great results.

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#192

Post by wizofaus »

rtlfe wrote: post #138
ipaddr wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you switch languages during a job search? Are you avoiding companies with language requirements (four years Ruby)? Do you run into language/framework tests and/or homework assignments in languages you are unfamiliar with?

I've interviewed at probably 15+ companies over the last decade, and none of them had language requirements or tests. Honestly I see those things as red flags. If you can find somebody with good problem solving skills and proficiency in any language, they'll be able to pick up your language no problem.

I'm guessing that's not typical for most devs and most job openings. Recruiters in particular seem to assume they need to find devs experienced with particular stacks, and for companies who need to quickly re-fill roles after losing staff, a good dev with experience in the stack/ecosystem you've been working with is always going to get up to speed faster than one without that experience. I'd also say convincing hiring managers that specific libraries/ platforms/languages/tools that you've been using shouldn't be listed as "must have"'s in a JD is hard.

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#193

Post by wizofaus »

thr0wawayf00 wrote: post #52
BryanBeshore wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done the merry go round of different languages, it also feels great gaining expertise in an individual language and to utilize new (release) capabilities of that the language.

Absolutely. Conversely, it's frustrating to deal with a build and release system that's subpar compared to what you're used to working with, but I recognize some folks probably feel that way about my preferred tools. That's just where I've chosen to invest my time I guess. I was shocked at how hellish compiling and releasing a large iOS app was compared to deploying a web service, not to mention setting up the develo…

Yep, if I never have to deal with an automated CI/CD pipeline for iOS again (especially trying to reliably run unit tests - the simulator is flaky as hell) I'll be very happy. I don't even mind the MacOS-only requirement so much (though it does suck), but Apple's tendency to constantly force breaking changes on you is just an endless source of pain (by force I mean, release to App Store not permitted unless you build with version X of Xcode, which requires version Y of MacOS which is incompatible with version just-about-anything-else or everything else you're using.)

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#194

Post by azemetre »

jrockway wrote: post #148
ipaddr wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you switch languages during a job search? Are you avoiding companies with language requirements (four years Ruby)? Do you run into language/framework tests and/or homework assignments in languages you are unfamiliar with?

Does anyone still have language requirements? I did my Google interviews in Perl and wrote mostly Java and Go there. At my current job, our codebase is all Go (expect frontend) and pretty much nobody we hire has prior Go experience. Prior experience is almost a curse these days. I learned Go by having the Go team review every one of my CLs for a year. Now I do Go code reviews and think "that simply isn't done, I woul…

Is the wow bad or good?

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#195

Post by julianeon »

dnissley wrote: post #100
nly wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a cute theory, but the reality is most employers want you to be relatively efficient from day dot. I work in a team with a codebase split 50/50 between C# and C++, and if you're not proficient in one of those then the chances of you getting hired, even if you're an incredible programmer, are slim.

This is a trait of an employer that I consider a red flag. If they don't understand that most programming languages are pretty similar, and can be picked up quickly by any willing person, they probably don't understand a lot of other things in regards to tech

That's not fair. The whole point of "footguns" is that they are not obvious and that the reason more experienced people don't set them off, is because they've directly experienced their results before.

Our industry went to the trouble of inventing a whole new language (Rust), which is now being championed by major industry players, because those footguns are so non-obvious. "Trusting" smart people to "just not make mistakes with pointers" was clearly the wrong choice.

If you haven't used C and C++ before, it's reasonable to think you're going to make those first-time mistakes with your code inside their codebase. That's a good argument for not hiring you and only hiring experienced C/C++ programmers.

In practice, that's exactly what those companies do.

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#196

Post by LAC-Tech »

blocked_again wrote: post #15

Best strategy for becoming a high paying/good software engineer would be to think of yourselves as problem solver and language as just one of the tool for problem solving. Thinking of yourselves as someone who is a writer of a certain programming language is self constarining and missing the point.

I read this advice so much as a younger programmer, but now I am in a position to say - this doesn't work.

Sure think of yourself as multi-lingual and able to learn anything (which you probably are). But don't market yourself that way, especially if you're a contractor. People want someone who knows their tech stack and they want you to be productive yesterday.

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#197

Post by wizofaus »

hardware2win wrote: post #155
dnissley wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a trait of an employer that I consider a red flag. If they don't understand that most programming languages are pretty similar, and can be picked up quickly by any willing person, they probably don't understand a lot of other things in regards to tech

Quickly=?

"Any willing person"=?

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#198

Post by LAC-Tech »

weatherlite wrote: post #113
rco8786 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've wasted so much time digging into tools that I've never used again. Don’t think of it this way. Learning new tools is almost never a waste of time, you just don’t know when you’ll need the lessons learned next. But you will.

What lessons do I learn from learning webpack? Or whatever the new way of bundling things in FE is called now? Compare that to understanding C or UNIX. There are skills that decay much slower than others.

As a fellow webpack victim, the new way of bundling things in FE is esbuild and it's better in every way - faster, simpler to configure, easier to understand... and did I mention faster? my god it's so much faster.

Your point about wasting your finite life dealing with webpack still stands, but just want everyone to know that there is a ray of light in frontend.

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#199

Post by unsupp0rted »

ld_bic wrote: post #121
blocked_again wrote: post #15

Best strategy for becoming a high paying/good software engineer would be to think of yourselves as problem solver and language as just one of the tool for problem solving. Thinking of yourselves as someone who is a writer of a certain programming language is self constarining and missing the point.

I write COBOL I work 24hrs/week I make $15k/week I also can’t center a div on a web page or do much of anything other then what I do. Specialization IMO is key to highest job satisfaction and highest salary in this industry

Interesting- this is contrary to what many people responded when I AskHN'd recently:

> Ask HN: How do I learn real-world COBOL? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31906829

How does one learn to do what you do (write COBOL in the real world to make a great living)?

Re: Ask HN: What is the job market like for niche languages (Nim, Crystal)?

#200

Post by klohto »

rrdharan wrote: post #118
shocks wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Litmus test I guess. Parent is fairly trivial to contact if you can use Google.

They’re quite trivial to identify; they are not “fairly” trivial to contact unless GitHub or Stack Exchange has some DM capability I’m also unaware of. Poster’s Web site has no official contact info. Yes, I’m sure I could keep digging and find a way but I don’t consider that “fairly trivial”.

Well, there is LinkedIn, as well as his company email format. It’s really not that hard.
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