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South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

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Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> believe a conservative would say those ends don't justify the constitutional defying means that we used to achieve them One can say many things. At the end of the day, the track record stands for itself.

Yes, and many do not like that track record. For instance, allowing women to have abortions, and they now have the ability to alter that track.

> many do not like that track record

This is separate from the question of whether the Constitution worked. It did. It produced a stable, powerful society. That some people are dissatisfied doesn’t refute that track record. It just points out there are dimensions on which it failed some.

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of this discussion, I think they meant “oppose access to abortion for those who want/need it”.

I think that want/need is doing a lot of work here. One can be in favor of abortions for medical necessity or when the choice to get pregnant was not consensual while still being wildly opposed to abortions for convenience reasons.

How big must the government be to investigate every miscarriage to see whether or not it was deliberate and for medical necessity, or done because the pregnancy was the result of rape? We're talking about hiring a lot of medical professionals and expanding our already large tracking apparatuses.

If we're not talking about expanding government along these lines then maybe we should just leave the choice to the people immediately involved.

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuinely asking, have you considered that banning abortion doesn’t save babies who have already died or are dying in the womb? And doesn’t save situations where there are no babies involved at all, and there are chronically ill people who are being denied medication because the medication can cause abortions?

There are edge cases with all penal laws. If one ‘bans’ murder, the legislatures and courts will need to grapple with killing in self-defense, pulling the plug on a brain-dead vegetable, administering drugs in some cases that have a high risk of death, assisting in a suicide, accidentally causing a death vs intentionally, etc. This isn’t new. Each state crafts it’s own laws to address these things, each prosecutor us…

How do we decide which cases to prosecute? Do we convene a grand jury for every miscarriage? Do you have any idea how many investigations this would be per year?

If you don't investigate every miscarriage, what's the criteria for getting the state involved? Do you wait for family or neighbors to report a crime? Do you track medical appointments and make a judgement as to when a birth was expected and didn't happen?

I'm not sure you've thought this through.

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..." It explicitly says Congress however it is currently interpreted that it applies to all governmental organizations. Federal, state and local. It has previously been argued that the same limitation on interstate law existed at th…

> It explicitly says Congress however it is currently interpreted that it applies to all governmental organizations. Federal, state and local. No, it isn't. States are limited by the 14th Amendment. Now, the Supreme Court has interpreted the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment to apply a whole lot of substantive rights against the states, including rights exactly identical to those protected against federal inte…

> that states can regulate purely intrastate Commerce is not subject to serious dispute.

> The argument is that the interstate commerce clause itself prohibits many state regulations of interstate commerce

If you argue that states have the right to regulate interstate commerce AND the congress can pass a bill in regards to abortion because doing so is in the interest of interstate commerce. Then why can't a state pass a law that allows fathers of children that were aborted in another state to sue the abortion provider that did the procedure?

On the other hand what if we agreed that having an abortion isn't a matter of interstate commerce, then congress would not have the authority to regulate it nationally and states wouldn't be able to do so either.

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and many do not like that track record. For instance, allowing women to have abortions, and they now have the ability to alter that track.

> many do not like that track record This is separate from the question of whether the Constitution worked. It did. It produced a stable, powerful society. That some people are dissatisfied doesn’t refute that track record. It just points out there are dimensions on which it failed some.

My understanding is that conservative do not believe the constitution worked; they believe that the original intent is no longer honored and they have set about a legal project to correct that wrong which is now well in control of the court system and get back to the original intent of the constitution (the original intent being what they derive it to be from their readings of history and the text itself).

That those people who are dissatisfied with that track record are now in control of the judicial branch of the US government doesn't refute that track record, I agree, but it does suggest that we are probably on a different track now, no?

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#166
post #56
post #2

Quoted post unavailable.

Hasn't there been some issues for example with instructions of making bombs or chemical weapons? And both of those should be constitutional rights... So limiting harm to others by banning abortion information don't seem any less of overstepping boundaries.

Not in the United States. I run a web site that publishes information about the making of explosives, chemical weapons, and even restricted nuclear materials. It's all perfectly legal. Most of the information comes from government publications, patents, scientific journals, and books that you'd find in any well stocked university library. Even far less scholarly (and far less accurate) books like the Anarchist Cookbook or Poor Man's James Bond are legal in the US, despite the fact that both books contain instructions for activities that would be federal crimes if successfully carried out.

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Since you have shown you have limited capacity for empathy, try imagining that this 10 year old girl was someone related to you. Maybe even your own daughter. Would you still be aloofly invoking the legalist stance, as if it's ridiculous to demand that laws be just? No, you would be kicking and screaming and crying because of how unfair it is. The rule of law exists precisely because of the temptation to think with…

See my reply to the other person who made this argument. You ignore my second half of the comment where I debunk the argument with "logic".

> The rule of law exists precisely because of the temptation to think with our "empathy" instead of our brains.

Assumptions galore are made here. First off, the rule of law exists because of power heirarchies. People create laws to protect THEMSELVES and THEIR interests. Monarchs didn't create laws for the benefit of everyone, neither do dictators. Furthermore many laws exist to augment our empathy. Speeding laws exist because many people are incapable of comprehending the danger they could pose to someone else. Animal cruelty is illegal because the majority of people understand it's wrong, and we will force that wisdom upon others who don't.

> the temptation to think with our "empathy" instead of our brains

Where do you think empathy comes from if not our brains? Empathy is a tool of reason, not orthogonal to it. Would you praise someone for only using one of their senses? Or would you think they are ridiculous for constructing a worldview based only around their sense of smell? Thinking that empathy is somehow a trait to be overcome and not a tool is the same as eating soap regardless of how it tastes, because it "smells good". Empathy allows us to consider the conditions and experiences of those outside of our immediate sphere of influence. In a democracy this is especially invaluable, since individuals make decisions that influence society at large.

The inability to see outside of your every day experience is not logical or rational, it's the exact opposite. Empirical evidence can be a great tool for analyzing macro trends, but empathy allows us to better understand the causality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are edge cases with all penal laws. If one ‘bans’ murder, the legislatures and courts will need to grapple with killing in self-defense, pulling the plug on a brain-dead vegetable, administering drugs in some cases that have a high risk of death, assisting in a suicide, accidentally causing a death vs intentionally, etc. This isn’t new. Each state crafts it’s own laws to address these things, each prosecutor us…

How do we decide which cases to prosecute? Do we convene a grand jury for every miscarriage? Do you have any idea how many investigations this would be per year? If you don't investigate every miscarriage, what's the criteria for getting the state involved? Do you wait for family or neighbors to report a crime? Do you track medical appointments and make a judgement as to when a birth was expected and didn't happen? I…

>…do we convene a grand jury…

Every felony charge goes through a grand jury.

Indeed, every death is investigated to some extent. Every county has a coroner, some states have full-blown inquests after each death.

Do you think when grandma dies of old age she’s just taken to a funeral home and that’s that?

There’s more to it.

If something looks suspicious, it’s kicked up to the next level. If questions remain, it’s kicked up another level.

I don’t mean to sound rude, but you seem to have little experience with the day-to-day legal processes surrounding every death. You may be more familiar with a crime like arson. As you MAY know, every single structure fire is investigated. Some turn out to be arson. Some don’t. These processes exist, always have existed, and I think you’re straining.

>I’m not sure you’ve thought this through.

I’ve been doing this for a living for over 25 years.

Whether your pro-choice or pro-life isn’t my concern. God bless you either way. But, the criminal process regarding abortion existed for centuries prior to Roe v. Wade. It’s really not as complicated as you make out.

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The reversal or Roe was not about "kicking it back to the states", it was the first step in trying to make abortion access illegal nationwide. Yes, and it makes me angry that so many commenters on this and other forums said, "Well, they have a point. It should be left to the states." As if women whose lives are at risk can wait for their judicial philosophy to cleanly play out; as if the raped 10 year old being forc…

You've got it precisely backwards. It is because the abortion issue is so weighty that it should be resolved according to the legal processes set out in the Constitution. Federalism, separation of powers, etc., aren't for the easy stuff. They exist to allow a large and diverse nation--full of people who have different values and often actively hate each other--to cohere as a single unit. No other developed country ha…

I understand where you're coming from, however this exact type of logic of separation of powers has only ever been invoked when trying to protect inhumane policies in the US.

For example, Colorado and other states have legalized weed. They don't need to wax poetic about separation of powers etc to defend their position, because everyone understands that this is exactly what the Federal system was designed for. To allow states to augment their economies and taxation systems as they see fit (going back to colonial era reasoning).

Throughout US history the most vocal proponents of states rights have been those who attempt to limit personal liberties. They first use the constitution as a jumping board, arguing that "it's not explicitly stated in the constitution!" because the constitution is limited and vague (The founding fathers intentionally kicked the can down the road for racial issues). Technically, the regressives are right here, but they are hiding behind legalism to protect their abhorrent viewpoints.

"If it's so popular then just vote on it then!"

Unfortunately it's not so simple. At the Federal level, a filibuster proof majority is required in the Senate (non-proportional) as well as full control of all three branches of government (president and congress are also non-proportional, although in a different way). So it's incredibly difficult to pass overwhelmingly popular legislature/amendments in the US. Which is precisely why we have seen most of our civil rights gains over the last 50 years be accomplished through the court system. At the state level, there is no filibuster (mostly) and so there is no mechanism for a minority to halt legislation at the state level.

This kind of game has been played out for the last 200 years. Yes rules are important, but the reactionaries in US history have typically "meta-gamed" the flaws in our system that were overlooked by the founding fathers in order to preserve horrendous practices. That's not to say that there is no benefit to our checks and balances, but when it comes to things like civil rights, gay marriage, and abortion, the opposing side is mostly meta-gaming and exploiting checks and balances negatively.

To sum up, corruption in the third world occurs by circumventing the laws. Corruption in the US occurs when you put someone in a position of power to interpret the laws the way you want them to. If you need sources, I can provide.

> No other developed country has approached the abortion issue by saying "pfft the rules don't matter."

The Roe decision was not made on "rules don't matter" it was an extension of the due process clause in the 14th amendment. The overturning of it was made on interpretations of common law going back to the 14th century, the main point of argument being that there was "no innate protection of abortion as a fundamental right".

Re: South Carolina bill outlaws websites that tell how to get an abortion

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment isn’t acknowledging that long-term solutions are necessary but not sufficient to make whole the continued injustice of trauma and death that will result from laws that deprive reproduce rights. It’s important to keep in mind there is a current and ongoing number of people who are dying, who have died, who are being deprived medical care (some who aren’t even pregnant!) and that an amendment to the consti…

Personally, I don't feel the idea of government is legitimate, but if you do, then you must abide by the process, for better or worse. There was plenty of time between Roe v Wade and present to pass an amendment or secede, so clearly the matter wasn't urgent.

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