Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#11

Post by epistasis » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:15 PM UTC

This was a 2018 issue, but today's issue in 2022 is extremely concerning, as production is less than 50% of capacity right now:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-15/french-nu...

Their fleet is aging out, is experiencing long down times to check on the reactors.

Also concerning is that their attempts at new construction have been failures, in Flamanville and Olkiluoto. They might future it out, but it will take multiple decades to build again, there is no quick fix for building new nuclear.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#12

Post by epistasis » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:18 PM UTC

bbojan wrote: post #5

My understanding is that plants with cooling towers don't have this problem. The question is how expensive the towers are to build. Also, some newer nuclear reactor designs don't have this problem as they would operate at much higher temperatures, therefore making air cooling possible (e.g. liquid salt reactors).

Cooling can be extremely expensive, in the wrong locations. Diablo Canyon in California uses once-through ocean water for cooling, which is not allowed in new licenses because of environmental damage. Building cooling towers in the challenging geography there would cost somewhere between $5B-$15B (I can't remember the exact numbers, nor find the source document with all the options evaluated since 2020, the decision was made many years ago). At that cost they decided to shut down the nuclear plant rather than try a cooling retrofit.

This is probably an extreme case for costs, however.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#13

Post by daniel-cussen » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #11

This was a 2018 issue, but today's issue in 2022 is extremely concerning, as production is less than 50% of capacity right now: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-15/french-nu... Their fleet is aging out, is experiencing long down times to check on the reactors. Also concerning is that their attempts at new construction have been failures, in Flamanville and Olkiluoto. They might future it out, but it wi…

That quick fix for building new nuclear existed once and was called "The Manhattan Project" and involved about...half of the world's sickest geniuses coming together and putting that shit show on the road, and get that shit show going STRONG.

It's like a lost art.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#14

Post by hotpotamus » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

daniel-cussen wrote: post #13

epistasis wrote: post #11

This was a 2018 issue, but today's issue in 2022 is extremely concerning, as production is less than 50% of capacity right now: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-15/french-nu... Their fleet is aging out, is experiencing long down times to check on the reactors. Also concerning is that their attempts at new construction have been failures, in Flamanville and Olkiluoto. They might future it out, but it wi…

That quick fix for building new nuclear existed once and was called "The Manhattan Project" and involved about...half of the world's sickest geniuses coming together and putting that shit show on the road, and get that shit show going STRONG. It's like a lost art.

That was the era of big government. Since then we've evolved towards limited government and the brainpower is put to more efficient uses like social media and designing financial abstractions, both of which pay much better than government work.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#15

Post by epistasis » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

m2fkxy wrote: post #9

It's a non-subject really. NPPs are technically very well able to function under such heatwave. Regulations limiting the upstream/downstream water temperature difference and the maximum stream temperature are the limiting factor. Derogations are in place to allow NPPs bypassing these limitations. And tne allowed temperature increase is... pretty anecdotal. Typically, the max downstream temperature is increased by one…

Being concerned about "is nuclear being painted in a bad light" is not the right thing to focus on here, especially in a country that supports nuclear, like France. The real question is what France will do for power.

I would consider this a huge issue, especially in a warming world.

Also more important than being worried about the public image of nuclear, which is quite popular in France, is figuring out if and how France can construct new nuclear in the future. Even with their supportive population and regulatory structure, their Flamanville project is facing the exact same cost and delay issues as the recent projects in the US at VC Summer and Vogtle.

All this undermines the idea that public image or "ecologists" are the ones holding back nuclear power. The reality is that the industry, or technology itself, is not delivering.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#16

Post by epistasis » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

daniel-cussen wrote: post #13

epistasis wrote: post #11

This was a 2018 issue, but today's issue in 2022 is extremely concerning, as production is less than 50% of capacity right now: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-15/french-nu... Their fleet is aging out, is experiencing long down times to check on the reactors. Also concerning is that their attempts at new construction have been failures, in Flamanville and Olkiluoto. They might future it out, but it wi…

That quick fix for building new nuclear existed once and was called "The Manhattan Project" and involved about...half of the world's sickest geniuses coming together and putting that shit show on the road, and get that shit show going STRONG. It's like a lost art.

The physics is easy. Economical and on-time construction is the hard part.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#17

Post by Puts » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:42 PM UTC

I actually learned just recently that most of our energy consumption goes to creating heat or cooling, like 70% or something. So right now we are creating electricity to convert to heat or cooling, while we technically could just store the heat instead. A large enough pool of water could store heat for long periods (months) with minimal energy loss. So the notion that energy from renewable sources such as the sun can't be stored effectively is not true, and in fact the big part of our energy needs could be stored this way.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#18

Post by cedilla » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:46 PM UTC

m2fkxy wrote: post #9

It's a non-subject really. NPPs are technically very well able to function under such heatwave. Regulations limiting the upstream/downstream water temperature difference and the maximum stream temperature are the limiting factor. Derogations are in place to allow NPPs bypassing these limitations. And tne allowed temperature increase is... pretty anecdotal. Typically, the max downstream temperature is increased by one…

It's only fear-mongering if you silently presuppose that the regulations of the amount and temperature of water is arbitrary.

In reality, these regulations are necessary to a) not kill the river and b) to have acceptable safety margins for the cooling.

Running these reactors is technically possible - just barely - but complety reckless.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#19

Post by adrianN » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 2:53 PM UTC

m2fkxy wrote: post #9

It's a non-subject really. NPPs are technically very well able to function under such heatwave. Regulations limiting the upstream/downstream water temperature difference and the maximum stream temperature are the limiting factor. Derogations are in place to allow NPPs bypassing these limitations. And tne allowed temperature increase is... pretty anecdotal. Typically, the max downstream temperature is increased by one…

One degree doesn't seem like much to you because you're a land mammal. Aquatic life is much more sensitive to temperature differences.

Re: Europe’s heatwave is forcing nuclear power plants to shut down (2018)

#20

Post by rich_sasha » Fri, Jul 22, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

Could you use a different coolant instead? Presumably primary coolant is reused not dumped (water flowing around the actual nuclear fuel). So the question is, what do you cool that with. What about CO2?