Live data from Hacker News

Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

online.wsj.com

61–70 of 136 posts

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#61
Anytime you have both vesting schedules and at-will employment, your employer can fire you at any time and you will not get any unvested stock. Startups need to do this all the time when employees are underperforming or a bad fit. Renegotiating so that you can get a portion of that stock and stay employed is perhaps, if this were an isolated incident, a much better deal for the employee than getting fired.

Where this becomes very distasteful is if these aren't isolated incidents of very underperforming employees but Zynga using its leverage to negotiate compensation down arbitrarily. Even if a developer is performing just as well as expected upon hiring, it is unlikely that they could get a guaranteed offer of $1M from another company, and so Zynga could easily force a renegotiation of an unvested grant worth $5M down to $1M. This would be reprehensible - even if that employee isn't really adding $5M worth of value, if they are performing up to the expectations that were set when they were hired then the agreement should be honored - getting a chance of a huge upside is one of the reasons employees take lower salaries and work longer hours at startups in the first place. A company that abused its bargaining position like this should not expect to be able to hire good employees in the future.

There isn't really enough information in the article to know that this latter case is what's happening. There are scenarios in which this behavior is very malicious, and scenarios in which it's relatively reasonable. It all hinges on how the employees in question were performing and how common this tactic is. I don't think anybody here knows those details, so we should really try and avoid the typical internet rush-to-judgement here. I don't know anything about the internals of Zynga, but I have seen HN get out the pitchforks for other companies when the real story turned out to be much more mundane.

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#64
post #43
post #10

Wow this should be straight up illegal and yet: "One lawyer said that over the past year, he has heard executives of three social-media sites discuss the possibility of clawing back equity from some employees. Another lawyer, who has handled stock-compensation issues with technology companies for decades, said he never saw a company try to take equity from employees until about two years ago, but has since seen three…

They're not saying "you give us some of your compensation back", they're saying "your future compensation will be less than you expected." It's kinda like if someone gets you to join their company by offering to pay you 100k/year, but then 6 months in drops your pay to 50k/yr. And really it's not even that. It's "you got hired at 100k/yr, but then the company was WILDLY SUCCESSFUL and you then expected to make 10M ov…

Actually, it is theft. The grant is a commitment to issue the equity on the vesting schedule. Attempting to change that schedule is attempting to deny employees the compensation they are morally due.

If the employee continues to do the work he promised to do at the time of the grant, firing him, or attempting to renegotiate, simply to get the stock back is a form of theft.

You can't just hire someone at $100k a year and then decide you want to pay them less, at least not without risking a losing a lawsuit.

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#65

So their CEO has a list of executives that he feels did so little he considers them "missing in action". If that were the case, why didn't he just fire them for cause? That would have stopped the vesting clocks on their options. Or was he paying so little attention to who was and was not contributing that firing them didn't occur to him at the time? In that case, who's really "missing in action" here? If I were going…

It communicates to IPO investors: CEO is such a dick that he will happily screw over employees in order to enrich himself. Believe it or not, there will be a coterie of investors who will get behind that. (They will perceive that their interests are aligned with the CEO after IPO.)

As an investor what this tells me is the CEO has no personal integrity, and I begin to doubt the veracity of his IPO filings.

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#66
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Puts don't start trading immediately after the IPO. (There are also lockout/reporting requirements on derivatives, but I've always wondered how enforceable/detectable such transactions are.)

There are ways to hedge though, right?

yes, any good broker can set you up with a collar. you miss the upside but it will keep your price locked in until the lockout period expires. A lot of people do that.

If you work at a startup that is about to IPO, there is a high chance that the brokers will find you and will pitch you all of these services.

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways to hedge though, right?

Not usually, you need someone on the other side of the transaction. And even if the options were available, the volatility would make the spread very costly.

The standard way, if you are prohibited from trading that stock, is to buy derivatives that are short on a basket of similar stocks. This hedges against a general market fall, such as 2001.

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another potential gotcha is the post-IPO sales lockout period. I don't know if it's the same in software, but in a previous life I was a chemist in a biotech startup that had an initially successful IPO. The rank and file were prohibited from cashing out options for six months after the IPO but somehow all the execs were exempt and got rich while the stock was enjoying a post-IPO high. Needless to say, by the time we…

Thats what put options are for.

You cannot buy put options during the lockout period. It's specifically spelled out in the option agreement. It's pretty airtight.

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#69
I've seen people get cheated out of compensation this way, in some cases where they took greatly reduced salaries, in exchange for shares, but the shares vested, and after creating the major innovation the company wanted, they were fired without cause before the first vesting cliff.

I think vesting, as a mechanism, is problematic. Especially when you make a founder vest stock they've already bought and paid for (with sweat equity and the money they put up to start the business.)

Unfortunately, a lot of startups play fast and loose with this. Its common to ask someone to take a lower salary, where, say, they're making $5,000 less each month, but they aren't vesting any shares each month. Some companies only vest in blocks each year. Which means that if employment ends for any reason, the employee will effectively be shortchanged for the months of work before the cliff.

Yet it is pitched as if the stock or options is like the salary.

Its not uncommon for startups to fire employees right before their first cliff... if there is a shorter downturn in outlook (or if the founders are on the down side of the roller coaster and are panicking...)

I think a better solution would be for any kind of equity reward to be given monthly, with the paycheck.

Rather than grant a huge block of shares, vesting over 4-6 years, maybe give the employees a small amount each month. This amount would be fully vested, and it can be adjusted whenever you have your reviews.

As the startup grows, naturally, the shares will become more valuable, and the grants in future years will likely be lower for everybody. They could just decline faster for the under-performing employees and maybe not even decline at all for the star performers.

This eliminates the stress and unfairness of cliff vesting.

For the situation where an employee might leave within the first year, you could have a clause that gives the company the right, upon termination, to buy back the employees equity at the highest price during the year (e.g.: if you raised two angel rounds, then it would be at the higher) plus a dollar a share. This way the employee isn't screwed over, and you don't have people who were there for just a year clogging up your investor rolls. If it isn't buying back the stock at the price you've been selling to investors (plus a dollar a share) then your expectations of the value of that stock are so low that its wrong to cheat the employee out of the roll of the dice for a big upside.

I might be missing something, but this is an attempt to create something fair, for an environment where cash is short and people want to use stock or options as regular compensation.

Paychecks don't vest, and imagine how many people would work for you if you said "We'll pay you $100,000 a year, but only on January 1st of each year. If you leave before then, or we decide to fire you, you get nothing."

Re: Zynga Chief Seeks to Claw Back Stock

#70
post #43
post #10

Wow this should be straight up illegal and yet: "One lawyer said that over the past year, he has heard executives of three social-media sites discuss the possibility of clawing back equity from some employees. Another lawyer, who has handled stock-compensation issues with technology companies for decades, said he never saw a company try to take equity from employees until about two years ago, but has since seen three…

They're not saying "you give us some of your compensation back", they're saying "your future compensation will be less than you expected." It's kinda like if someone gets you to join their company by offering to pay you 100k/year, but then 6 months in drops your pay to 50k/yr. And really it's not even that. It's "you got hired at 100k/yr, but then the company was WILDLY SUCCESSFUL and you then expected to make 10M ov…

The difference between a pay cut and a stock restriction is that pay is regular and vesting is not.

Let's say you renegotiate down 50% like you suggested. That means from now on you make 50% and before you made 100%.

A vesting schedule though almost always accelerates towards the end. So if you renegotiate down 50% towards the end you may in fact be likely losing 75% or more. That's the problem with renegotiating stock grants/options, you likely still have a large amount left unvested and you put in all the hours and work beforehand with the promise that loyalty would be rewarded over time.

Post reply on HN