Live data from Hacker News

Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

strongtowns.org

691–700 of 1001 posts

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#691

"We" don't ignore them. Every major government has a body dedicated entirely to automobile safety. In the USA, this is NHSTA - National Highway Safety & Transportation Administration. They maintain an information system of traffic fatality statistics in the USA, called FARS (fatality analysis reporting system). This system is used to determine new safety devices and standards for vehicles and to test their effectiven…

Different countries deal with this problem in different ways. Roads in the Netherlands have changed dramatically in recent decades. This is due to systematic focus on reducing accident rates, improved standards for road construction, and the roll out of traffic measures to reduce risk; including some of the strictest speed controls in the world. It works.

Bureaucracies are really good at data driven improvements, once they are tasked and empowered to do so.

Here's a list of measures that I know of that I would say are somewhat unique to the Netherlands compared to Germany where I currently live.

- two lane 100km roads now have colored green lines in the middle with white dashed lines on both sides of that green line. This creates a relatively wide area in the middle that is a bit of a neutral zone. This discourages cars from crossing that divider and doing things like driving close to or slightly across the line with half a tire. Reason: these roads are dangerous. Head on collisions at high way speed are usually bad news.

- Generally, overtaking on two lane roads is discouraged and limited to zones that are very clearly marked. You can expect traffic cameras near these zones too. Reason: people are stupid and overtaking cars on two lane roads at high speeds is a recipe for lethal accidents.

- more colored asphalt is used to separate bike lanes from normal lanes. Wherever bike and car traffic mixes, you'll find clearly marked parts of the road for bikes to use. As well as typically, reduced speeds. Reason, when bikes are involved with traffic accidents, the fatalities are significant. So, reduced speed and better separation, reduces the accident rate.

- A lot of country side roads have reduced speed limits. a lot of 80km (default max speed outside of cities) roads have been downgraded to 60km. Reason, narrow roads and high speeds cause lots of accidents. Speeds are clearly indicated both with signs and lettering on the road.

- Traffic cameras are used on all types of roads to enforce speeds in addition to moving speed checks. They are absolutely merciless. 1 km above the limit will cost you. People still speed but a lot less and compared to Germany where people will casually drive 70-80km/hour in places where you are supposed to drive 50km/hour,the difference is huge. The net result is that by and large, traffic seems to stick to the limits. Locals usually know where the cameras are and might risk going a few km over. But most chicken out and drive 45-49 km/hour. Better 2 km under than 1 km over. Those fines are not fun.

- Lots of roads in cities and villages are limited to 30 km/hour. Basically anywhere bikes and cars mix on the road. The default is 50 km/hour.

- Lots of crossings have been replaced with roundabouts. Remaining ones will have traffic lights or at least clearly marked right of way.

You get the point here. This is just a short list. This is a bureaucracy being systematic about rolling out measures that work just working the numbers and statistics. Every accident is analyzed and reported. Hotspots for accidents are prioritized for fixing. Traffic deaths are down by double digit percentages since 2006. And they were relatively low to begin with.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know, though, that there are certain patterns and behaviors that contribute to car accidents. For example, we know that speeding was a factor in something like a third of all car deaths. And I’m pretty confident that’s an underestimate, because there are lots of roads where the speed limit almost certainly should be slower and speed would not be indicated in the accident report, even though it was a factor. (I als…

> If we regulated automobiles the same way we regulate aircraft, every single automobile would have a speed governor installed. With regards to airplane speed limits in FAR 91.117, the responsibility is entirely on the pilot. There are no speed governors to prevent the pilot from busting this reg and it’s somewhat common for pilots to struggle with this in their first jet transition. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/t…

The parent comment is presenting a hypothetical of how a similar degree of regulation would look for cars, not saying that airplanes have that specific regulatory mechanism.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has this concept of "black spots" too. However, they are ironically named "safety corridors." We get a nice sign [0] to mark the death zone and then traffic continues unabated. [0] https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2010/04/inflated_traffic...

We also mark deadly intersections and turns with white crosses, one for each person who's died there. They're worth paying attention to, and I think locals at least learn to be weary of those locations.

I was at a community meeting where they debated removing all such crosses. They were triggering PTSD for people involved in the crashes. Most accidents occur close to home. Imagine a survivor having to drive past such a cross every day. I don't know on which side I land on the issue.

For safety, the crosses should probably be placed far ahead of the dangerous corner, not distracting drivers at the precise point they most need to pay attention.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#694

No need to overcomplicate it: we ignore it because it's not that common. I mean, for every one person that dies in a car accident in the U.S., 16 die from heart disease and look at how good we are (collectively) at not really tackling that as a source of deaths!

Exactly, we don't ignore it. The author is just shitty at risk assessment.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#695
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with your assessment at all. Deaths are rising, yet what changes are happening? And in particular the NHSTA doesn't give a damn about those outside of the car. The very greatest threat to the life of my children is cars. It would be easy, trivial almost, to fix this by legalizing building for houses and businesses that don't allow cars, but are served only by public transit. Yet this very simple, very d…

> Yet this very simple, very desirable concept is illegal in the US except for a few tiny islands. I don't see how it can be illegal? HOAs have extreme power and already impose all kinds of overbearing rules on people subject to them. So you could surely get together with a few hundred likeminded people and build a neighborhood where the HOA prohibits cars.

City and county laws still override HOA rules. And every city and county has minimum parking for businesses, setbacks, and mandated access by cars.

You might be able to build a tiny little enclosed block, but you couldn't also have business there too because of zoning.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#696
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is mandatory but not everyone follows the rules. Our car has been hit three times in the past 4-5 years and only one of the drivers was insured. (One didn’t even have a license!)

Interesting, I wouldn't expect it to be reasonably possible to avoid that rule. More difficult than driving without a license anyway. I believe over here the traffic inspectorate would want the plates back if you stop paying the insurance and then if you drive without the plates that's an instant hefty fee from the first cop that sees you. (The insurance is tied to the car, not to the driver.)

We have a weird hybrid model in the US (texas, at least) where some aspects of insurance are tied to the driver and some to the car. So I personally have liability insurance that pays out to other people (the legally required part) but also have insurance that covers my car in the event of a wreck.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#697
post #96

There’s an audio version of the same point here: https://podcast.strongtowns.org/e/the-drip-drip-drip-of-traf... A ”best effort” summary of this article: if thousands of people die in once place, it’s one of the great tragedies in American history. However if thousands of people die in thousands different places, it is ignored and considered a fact of life. When a plane or train crashes, we stop everything and redesi…

> When a plane or train crashes, we stop everything and redesign the entire network to prevent this from happening again. But each individual death from car accidents is not enough to trigger the same response in cities, planners, and civil engineers. I used to think this was very dumb and irrational. but eventually I came to think that the statistical death toll doesn't capture the full impact of a problem. how peop…

Really strange. You've known two people who died in crashes. You've probably drove by multiple bad crash sites. And yet you perceive a danger you have only seen on TV or Internet as more important. Nothing here about you in particular, of course — all of this is just "normal".

Makes one think, is it just how humans are or is it actually an example of how powerful is professional media?

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#698
post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't agree with your assessment at all. Deaths are rising, yet what changes are happening? And in particular the NHSTA doesn't give a damn about those outside of the car. The very greatest threat to the life of my children is cars. It would be easy, trivial almost, to fix this by legalizing building for houses and businesses that don't allow cars, but are served only by public transit. Yet this very simple, very d…

> Yet this very simple, very desirable concept is illegal in the US except for a few tiny islands. I don't see how it can be illegal? HOAs have extreme power and already impose all kinds of overbearing rules on people subject to them. So you could surely get together with a few hundred likeminded people and build a neighborhood where the HOA prohibits cars.

Minimum parking requirements are very common in the US. You would also still need some roads for emergency services.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's news about Florida and Donald Trump. Now do New York and California. The most populous states were likely over-reporting deaths. By the way, despite the rhetoric, states were getting money from the federal government for reporting a COVID death. There was literally a per-death payment. If that is not an incentive to over-report (despite the usual bloviating from Republicans), I don't know what is.

[citation needed]

Here you go, straight from the primary source (the center for medicare and medicaid services):

https://www.cms.gov/files/document/se20015.pdf

> Inpatient Prospective Payment System (IPPS) Hospitals - Section 3710 of the CARES Act directs the Secretary to increase the weighting factor of the assigned Diagnosis-Related Group (DRG) by 20 percent for an individual diagnosed with COVID-19 discharged during the COVID-19 Public Health Emergency (PHE) period.

Hospitals get to charge Medicare/Medicaid a 20% surcharge for COVID patients and COVID deaths.

Note that this is deaths and patients who test positive for COVID while at the hospital, not deaths/patients whose reason for being in the hospital is COVID. At one point, those were all counted as "COVID hospitalizations/deaths" respectively by the CDC.

Given that COVID tests are tuned to have high sensitivity and (comparatively) low specificity, all a hospital needs to do to get their hands on that money is just give out a lot of COVID tests, and avoid re-testing the false positives. COVID tests are cheap, and to patients, it looks like the hospital being extra careful about keeping them safe from COVID.

Re: Why we ignore thousands of daily car crashes

#700
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only we could take this further. What’s more in “control” than driving? Walking and riding a bike. That’s ultimate control.

Wow, could not agree less! In a bike you’re at the mercy of the bikers and drivers around you, with laughable safety features to protect you.

You’re focusing on these other aspects, not the actual control. I can put my bike in a car, I can ride a bike up a hill or on a dirt trail, a bike is comparatively inexpensive, I can take a bike on a train to another city. Etc.

And it would be even more obvious which form of transportation provides the most control if you had bike-first infrastructure.

But you’re also not accounting for lots of things completely out of your control, like where highways get built, potholes, funding, insurance rates, the price of rubber for new tires, oil changes, gas stations, etc. It’s the illusion of control.

We’ve designed cities specifically so that you can feel like you are in control driving a car. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Post reply on HN