Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#341

Post by srvmshr » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:48 PM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #330

srvmshr wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a black company? i am not aware of this nomenclature. Please explain? >[...] these are required to keep most of the solely good things. Which things?

A black company is basically a highly exploitative company. They will wring out employees for as much as possible, mostly within legal constraints, at the detriment of employees and the benefit of themselves. [0] probably explains it better. Since changing jobs is seen as a huge risk and the culture among individuals is to remain loyal, it allows black companies to take advantage of naïve, mostly young individuals. Y…

Yes. Wholeheartedly agree on both your points

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#342

Post by phpisthebest » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:52 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

People say alot of things that do not match reality, this is why these kind of self reporting surveys are bunk.

People work for money, plain and simple. If the salary is not there people walk. Period. This is more than just "pay the bills" but Pay the Bills + Savings + retirement + Kids + hobbies + etc.

10 years ago the "magic number" where salary started to become less important was 75K, today (and I have not seen the research) but my guess that is closer to 100-120K before your idea of "salary is not the most important thing" comes into play, even then though it will be in the top 5 until you are well in the 1 percent category which is 400-500K +

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#343

Post by pcmoney » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

kokanator wrote: post #32

We just went through a large hiring cycle. We posted two versions for every job posting- one with salary ranges and one without. The ads performed equally well in regard to total responses with the better candidates responding to the ones without salary ranges. And... before you say, perhaps your salary ranges were bad, they weren't. Our salary offerings are very aggressive to the developer's benefit. In my opinion,…

Salary is not a "sign of respect" it is an indicator of how the company makes money and values software engineers. Software companies have software margins other companies... do not. Software engineers want to work at companies where software is the product because:

1. They get to contribute more to the success of the company

2. What they built typically has real users

3. They are valued and get paid commensurately with the near infinite leverage they bring to the company.

4. They get to work with other like minded software engineers.

5. There is probably an established career path for them if they perform well.

Good engineers typically ALREADY work at a place they enjoy. The market is too competitive for good talent to put up with any BS whatsoever. You are trying to get them to leave a good place for another hopefully better place. However, there is risk because they don't know your company/have to trust you a bit. You MUST compensate for this risk.

My risk premium is easily a 25-50% salary increase. Which means I need a job to pay about $100-200k more or have significant high probability upside (IPO etc.) for me to jump all else equal (passion products maybe an exception).

If you waste my time with a job ad that doesn't tell me up front what to expect I will:

1. Not accept your interview request or offer.

2. Will flame your company throughout my entire network.

Also if you want me to do a "take home" anything that will be $500/hr with a max of 4 hours spent.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#344

Post by mlyle » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:54 PM UTC

JoshuaDavid wrote: post #331

mlyle wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another, simpler option: When you put a range of $100-120k, the very high quality candidate who won't accept an offer less than $150k doesn't apply. Or, put another way: > It could simultaneously be true that including a good salary range increases the number of applicants who are good fits for the role, and also true that including a good salary range decreases the average quality of candidates. Part of "good fit" c…

Yes, that is definitely a possibility. My point was "the average quality of candidates goes down when you post a salary range" can be true even if the salary range is very good .

It's possible, but I don't know that we should rush to believe that's the case based on an anecdote of a single flawed experiment when there's simpler explanations.

(Especially since it's only a problem if the higher pay motivates more bad applicants that are hard to distinguish from good applicants. If it encourages 100 people who have no relevant experience to apply, that brings the average down, but it doesn't increase the probability of making a bad hire.)

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#345

Post by wyclif » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

taude wrote: post #212

alexfromapex wrote: post #200

Or the hiring engineers are holding candidates to insanely high standards that they themselves couldn’t be held to. I did a 4.5 hour interview with Capital One where I had to design a full system diagram from a text description. I thought I did great on it because I’ve done it several times in previous roles for real. Then with a different interviewer I had to solve a Python challenge which I passed and then was aske…

Dont mold your interview process after a FAANG, if you're not going to offer FAANG money and incentives.

This is precisely what you should filter out: 2nd-tier non-FAANG companies who have obviously and unthinkingly adopted SV/FAANG interview processes and expectations when they aren't required.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#346

Post by seti0Cha » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:56 PM UTC

Maybe it's just where I am in my career, but I prefer to have some discussion before talking salary. I don't tend to look for $job, I look at specific jobs that look interesting to me. If it looks good I talk to them and see if they'd be willing to pay what I'd want to get to do it. I've had places go back and get approval to offer more so they could meet my requirements and I've taken jobs with lower offers because they looked more fun. If they'd posted a salary range, we probably wouldn't ever have talked in the first place. Maybe people find it hard to ask for what they want, or are worried they won't ask as much as the employer is willing to give? To me the salary range things more limiting than empowering.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#347

Post by somenewaccount1 » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 7:58 PM UTC

twawaaay wrote: post #282

In decades of interviewing and hiring developers I have not seen an actual difference coming from posting salary ranges. I tried many different versions of this. As a candidate, I do not apply to a thousand different places. I find 3-4 where I would want to work and I do my research before I even apply. I know what they can pay me before I get to talk to them. As an interviewer I try to stay away from candidates that…

That is so terrific you are talented enough that out of 3-4 places you want to work, one of them hires you. This seems like terrible advice for most people though.

Even if 4 out of the 4 would hire you, the chances of getting your resume looked at and a callback is very slim - and that's because it's a numbers game on both sides. Popular roles often have 10's-100's of candidates.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#348

Post by nelblu » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

dotdi wrote: post #256

More anecdotal evidence: a few years back I wanted to get out of the work situation I was in. I looked around, had some interviews, had some offers. None of the postings had salary ranges, as is common where I live. My eyes, however, were set on a specific small company because I liked their product. The process was long and involved multiple meetings, a take-home problem, and stretched over 2 or so months. I was upf…

I had similar experience, which ended up working well for me. I interviewed for a job that I wanted and after they liked me they offered me something that wasn't up to my expectation. I rejected the offer and kept my current job. Two months later they reached out to me again, saying they have another exciting project for me and whether I would like to be interviewed. I was like, I don't even want to talk to you if we aren't talking salary first, it will just waste your time and my time. So we agreed on the salary first and then I had couple of interviews before they hired me.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#349

Post by the_jeremy » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:00 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #270

kxyvr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well is this law actually enforced? As an example, I quickly pulled a physician job at a random HCA hospital in Denver: https://careers.hcahealthcare.com/jobs/9031565-pulmonary-sla... I see no salary ranges. I pulled some other medical jobs as well and it seems moderately random if they list anything at all. Really, I may be misunderstanding the law and what information is supposed to be disclosed, but the larger…

It's enforced, but needs to be reported to have action taken.

It's not heavily enforced. The fine is like $5k IIRC, they don't seek out job postings and only take tips, and the first breach by a company is only a warning.

Re: Tell HN: You can't hire because you don't post salary ranges

#350

Post by lordnacho » Thu, Jul 21, 2022, 8:01 PM UTC

twawaaay wrote: post #282

In decades of interviewing and hiring developers I have not seen an actual difference coming from posting salary ranges. I tried many different versions of this. As a candidate, I do not apply to a thousand different places. I find 3-4 where I would want to work and I do my research before I even apply. I know what they can pay me before I get to talk to them. As an interviewer I try to stay away from candidates that…

You also don't see the people who assume you don't pay well and "meh" you due to the lack of a range. If I see a firm that isn't well known with no range, why would I think they pay enough to make it worthwhile? Chances are we'll both waste time.