I have seen many outsourcing projects with my coachees and with founders, I've managed my own and cancelled several when I was called in to fix them. The key to this kind of work is to understand: The agency is not your buddy, they have very different goals than you have. Too often do I seen people who have nice chats with the agency over a coffee. They are not your friends. You need to write the contract to align th…
I regret my website redesign
301–310 of 789 posts
Re: I regret my website redesign
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for reading! I have a different philosophy when it comes to hiring in that I assume the people working with me are honest and they're motivated to do their jobs well. I'm paying for their time, and I assume they'll use their time effectively. If they can't use their time effectively, I terminate the hire, but I don't try to fix it with different policies. I agree that there are payment schemes that will cause…
The only goal of a company that has billable hours is to rack up billable hours. If that involves building an amazing piece of work, then that's fine. But if it can be done by blowing off the client and feeding them bullshit, then that's fine too. I watched consulting companies bilk literally millions of dollars out of a household name company by simply lying to people that didn't know any better. I really respect yo…
The estimated budget stemmed from the first project, but I had told the client that a lot of tasks would be much quicker because we had built the base in the first part.
Why would I try to rack up the hours and endanger the relationship? Client is happy to have the service this quick and for a very reasonable rate. I am happy, as the chance for future business is very high. Without the hassle from new biz efforts.
Re: I regret my website redesign
#303I have seen many outsourcing projects with my coachees and with founders, I've managed my own and cancelled several when I was called in to fix them. The key to this kind of work is to understand: The agency is not your buddy, they have very different goals than you have. Too often do I seen people who have nice chats with the agency over a coffee. They are not your friends. You need to write the contract to align th…
My experience is a lot of web agency people are the second kind. They have a cozy business where a happy client is worth more than a bilked one. They can be (occasionally) generous on the margins because the overall structure is good for them.
I would never look at someone coming to me with a $7k contract thinking "maybe I could stretch this out to several months and $40k." It's not worth the heart burn. I've only ever seen that scenario when a client couldn't be talked out of scope creep.
Unfortunately this agency was the other type. They're bad for the whole industry because trust is such an important factor and it's a challenge for clients to know who is happy to make a bunch of money for an honest hour's work versus who wants to cheat the already generous system.
Re: I regret my website redesign
#304These days when I build a website, I design them with the mindset that I want to subtlety troll the web design zeitgeist. As such, most of my designs these days are inspired by resources like https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ and http://modalzmodalzmodalz.com/ Let’s look at how I applied those towards my sites: https://legiblenews.com/ is just a mother fucking website, with dark mode. It’s responsive, accessible, and…
By the way, I like your news site, never heard of it before, thanks! And for your thingybase, have you looked into adding something like PaperCSS [0] to try the whole "sketchy" look together? Although you may be opposed to adding any css libraries lol I don't know.
Re: I regret my website redesign
#305You know how, during a big programming project, you have to keep the devs from going "this codebase has a lot of technical debt, let's rebuild the whole thing using Rust and Kubernetes and Deno and move the hosting to Azure and switch databases and use microservices and..."? Designers are exactly the same way. Just as technical fiddling is fun and interesting, making new designs from scratch is just as fun and intere…
I was ready to fire the agency the moment the author mentioned they were going off script and building whatever they wanted. This was a huge, blinking red flag for me. Why would you keep paying someone when they're doing work you didn't ask for, doing work that doesn't align with your goals, and ignoring what you say?
Re: I regret my website redesign
#306It's not even about the money per se. We all know sometimes projects balloon over budget but you had a very clear and small scoped project and yet you failed forcing your contractors to stick to target.
IMO your mistake was:
(a) Not calling out "Isaac" early enough and making a meeting to re-establish ground rules and produce a crystal-clear short list of priorities (you seem to have produced similar document -- kudos for that);
(b) Not demanding the first delivery in maximum two weeks after the conversation;
(C) Accepting business contract that doesn't allow you to put financial pressure if you are unhappy with the results.
I believe you mostly arrived at the same conclusion but in case you haven't -- you are not friends with these people. The "but we had this or that problem" flies only once, or, if you are feeling very generous, twice. After that you either threaten to sue or just cut your losses and leave.
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Your generic "we were just not a match" aphorism is setting you up for a similar occurrence in the future. Get rid of that mindset. It applies when dating or making friends, yes, but it absolutely does not apply in a business setting. You negotiate terms and when one side fails to stick to the terms, there must be consequences.
Re: I regret my website redesign
#307The original project budget was 7k, and you ended up spending 46k, for something that didn't really deliver on what you asked for originally.
It is really hard to imagine that it would have been more expensive to start over. It seemed clear by the middle of the story, that web agency wasn't doing what you were paying them for, at which point you increased the amount you were paying them in hope that would somehow change things, and then were shocked when they behaved exactly the same as they had before.
There's times when starting over is more expensive, this seems like the polar opposite of that and a clear example of sunk cost fallacy.
Re: I regret my website redesign
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for reading! I have a different philosophy when it comes to hiring in that I assume the people working with me are honest and they're motivated to do their jobs well. I'm paying for their time, and I assume they'll use their time effectively. If they can't use their time effectively, I terminate the hire, but I don't try to fix it with different policies. I agree that there are payment schemes that will cause…
The only goal of a company that has billable hours is to rack up billable hours. If that involves building an amazing piece of work, then that's fine. But if it can be done by blowing off the client and feeding them bullshit, then that's fine too. I watched consulting companies bilk literally millions of dollars out of a household name company by simply lying to people that didn't know any better. I really respect yo…
We mainly work for small and medium-sized businesses so typically it wouldn't fall exactly under the radar if we're not producing.
That all being said, I've been on the other end of this with agencies and freelancers and I would concur that you should treat these relationships as adversarial until trust is built.
Re: I regret my website redesign
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for reading! I have a different philosophy when it comes to hiring in that I assume the people working with me are honest and they're motivated to do their jobs well. I'm paying for their time, and I assume they'll use their time effectively. If they can't use their time effectively, I terminate the hire, but I don't try to fix it with different policies. I agree that there are payment schemes that will cause…
The only goal of a company that has billable hours is to rack up billable hours. If that involves building an amazing piece of work, then that's fine. But if it can be done by blowing off the client and feeding them bullshit, then that's fine too. I watched consulting companies bilk literally millions of dollars out of a household name company by simply lying to people that didn't know any better. I really respect yo…
The normal problem here is simple: the bread and butter of a lot of consultancies are a small set of big "house accounts", where both the consultancy and the client are on the same page about the value being generated and the price tag assigned to it. That's as it should be! Nobody is "full of shit" just because one client puts a 10x price tag on work you feel should be valued at 1x.
That doesn't make WebAgency OK. They mismanaged the engagement --- they shouldn't have done it at all, because they don't have the project management or the engagement structure to do a good job for 1x clients. When they realized they couldn't deliver a satisfactory project for the 1x client, they should either have terminated the engagement and refunded the payments to date, or finished it gratis and eaten the cost; the vendor should, in most circumstances, own the delivery risk.†
But for a lot of clients, and, importantly, disproportionately the clients a consultancy should want to serve, this whole saga is meaningless. The dollar amounts involved aren't high enough to micromanage, and all they care about is the outcome. It's of course still possible to burn those house accounts --- but burning a house account is a very big deal and well-run consultancies will freak out if it's happening.
This is a live-and-learn situation for everyone involved. If you're set up to deliver agency work to 1,000 person clients, you need to be very wary of picking up gigs from tiny sole-proprietor clients, because even when you get into things with the best intentions --- and I take 'mtlynch at their word that that's exactly what happened --- circumstances can fuck everything up, and a small client is going to feel that fuckup in ways an ordinary client won't.
I think 'mtlynch has exactly the right takeaway from this: if you're a small shop, you probably want to err on the side of engaging other small shops for consulting work, rather than agencies, unless that agency can really convince you that they've done the work to rig their business for delivering to small clients.
† Here it's tricky, because WebAgency was screwing up due to turnover and increased workload from their real clients, so delivering the work gratis would have impacted house accounts, and nobody is going to let that happen; meanwhile, 'mtlynch doesn't want them to cut bait and give him his money back, so both sides are limping along in an unproductive stalemate. It's a thing that happens!