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Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

whoownsengland.org

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Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#81
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s two parts. The conservation easement strips the land of its development capacity, and that restriction rides with the land to future owners in perpetuity, while the non profit stewards the land and enforces those legal claims if necessary.

I hate this process. It effectively gives someone else rights over the current owners land. The person becomes a tenet farmer in effect and is responsible for the taxes and upkeep while under the control of the organization. And the land is not accessible to the public. It's much better for the land to be organization-owned and open to public use. Just my opinion.

I volunteer with a regional land trust, and I think you're maybe misunderstanding the conservation easement process, or at least it's typical application.

The typical process is:

Private Landowner Decides they want to conserve their land.

They work with a Land Trust to define, and put in place the restrictions of that conservation easement. Those typically restrict development (though the landowner can in some cases "carve out" future building sites), and depending on the goals of the landowner and land trust, could allow things like agriculture, forestry, recreation etc..

I'm sure there's a conservation easement somewhere that restricts public access, but I've never seen one. Most commonly, the land stays inaccessible to the public just like it was before the easement, but nothing in the legal language of the easement prohibiting future public access.

(One conservation easement manager half-joked that every easement we do has public access potential, it just might take a few generations for that potential to be realized).

Next, that easement goes through the legal process of being put into place. Now, that land is subject to the restrictions of that easement forever. And it's the job (legal responsibility) of the Land Trust that holds the easement to regularly monitor the easements they hold, and make sure they're followed.

However, the original landowner still owns the land, just like before. If they sell the land, or someone inherits, it's still (de facto) private land, just private land with restrictions as to what can be done on it.

Now, there are private landowners who want to open their land to public access, and that's amazing. (We did our first few public access-specific easements this year at our comparatively-small land trust, and we're super excited). There are also times where a landowner puts an easement on their property, and then sells it to someone like a local, regional or state institution to be managed specifically for public access. There was recently a great story about how private individuals stepped in to conserve land, and then later transferred it to Washington State Parks[1].

There are also times when a property might transfer ownership, as well as the easement, to a Land Trust. We actually have one of these that we basically operate as a public park. But, that's like less than 2% of the total easements we hold.

So, to your points, I guess I would say:

The process of conservation easements by large _increases_ the amount of land available for public access and recreation, not decreases it. And if anyone is becoming a tenant farmer, it's the landowner choosing to become a tenant themselves.

There are times when an outside entity might purchase the easement from the landowner, but again, the landowner's not forced into that transaction.

1. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/washington/articles/...

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#83
post #52
post #7

In the United States, the American Prairie Reserve [1] is doing something along these lines in the area around the Wyoming/Montana border. In particular, their purchases (which often include private ranches that come up for sale) focus on building those corridors between existing public lands, effectively creating much larger continuous ecosystems that this article mentioned. It's probably easier to do in the United…

It would be tricky in more densely populated areas, thanks to the ruling in Kelo vs. City of New London . "The local government thinks they'll get more economic activity from someone else" is a valid reason to exercise eminent domain powers for some reason. It works in more rural places because, frankly, it's generally not worth the trouble of litigation there.

Some states have set up more restrictive eminent domain laws since that ruling.

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#84

The big problem, at least in the US, is that we don't build things anymore. The homeless camp 2 blocks from me is one glaring proof. The lack of power generation, power transmission, and pretty much any infrastructure you can think of is another. I agree that there is some conflict of interest between humans and untouched nature, and I am firmly on the side of us, humanity! What side are you on?

We do build things. I'm in SF where we have recently replaced the Bay Bridge, dug a big ol' tunnel, put up skyscrapers and luxury condos, etc.

What we don't do is build housing. (A lot of people blame NIMBYism for that but the situation is complex.)

> The lack of power generation, power transmission, and pretty much any infrastructure you can think of is another.

A friend of mine drives a Tesla, he says charging stations are cropping up all over. 5G is rolling out. There is a lot of aging infrastructure that needs to be repaired, rebuilt, or retired, but we're not quite Mad Max yet.

> I agree that there is some conflict of interest between humans and untouched nature, and I am firmly on the side of us, humanity!

I don't agree with that framing.

First of all, tactically, you're siding with the underdog! :)

Nature could literally wipe us out in the blink of an eye. A single hurricane can devastate a whole city in a few hours, Godzilla-style.

However, that's not the real reason why I don't think there's a real conflict of interest.

The reason is that untouched nature is the only baseline (in the entire known universe) for sanity. We need nature.

As we enter a computer-mediated "metaverse" or cyberspace, and especially as we allow our infants and children to grow up in it, untouched nature will become exponentially more important as (literal!) grounding for humanity.

That's why something like E. O. Wilson's Half Earth proposal is so important ( https://www.half-earthproject.org/ )

We only have one biosphere in the entire universe, of course we should try to preserve it intact and in working order! After all we have the rest of the solar system to do human stuff, eh?

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's advocate - if you don't even live in the country should you have the right to own property there?

If you don't live on the property should you have the right to own it?

It happens to people who live on the property too, and have to leave for a while.

I read about a person who had to go to the US for cancer treatment and in the interim his otherwise full-time primary residence was stolen.

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#86
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eminent domain is close to dead in the US. We nearly always lack sufficient political consensus to use it. It is partly why new infrastructure projects are increasingly rare and significantly more expensive.

It's probably for the better. It generally just gets used on people who lack the resources to fight back. It just doesn't sit well with me that a government can force you to sell your land at a price they determine.

I don't disagree, but there are ramifications. A big one being sprawl. If existing urban/suburban areas are to remain stagnant, then development will just push outward into areas where land is cheap and landowners more than happy to pocket a nice chunk for their former farmland. Wrap an urban growth boundary around the city, and then you can stop some of that and instead watch your housing prices skyrocket.

Wait a second, I think I just described Portland.

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s two parts. The conservation easement strips the land of its development capacity, and that restriction rides with the land to future owners in perpetuity, while the non profit stewards the land and enforces those legal claims if necessary.

> in perpetuity Or until the current owners convince a court of law to extinguish the conservation easement.

You should research what’s required to do so and the odds of it occurring. Only in rare/limited circumstances can the easement be terminated, and the IRS has some oversight into this because of the tax consequences of these easements (as you can claim a charitable tax deduction for donating and extinguishing the development capability of the parcel).

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#88
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be tricky in more densely populated areas, thanks to the ruling in Kelo vs. City of New London . "The local government thinks they'll get more economic activity from someone else" is a valid reason to exercise eminent domain powers for some reason. It works in more rural places because, frankly, it's generally not worth the trouble of litigation there.

> valid reason to exercise eminent domain powers for some reason The reason is: (1) eminent domain isn't Constitutionally limited in purpose beyond that it must be a public purpose. (2) State governments under the US Constitution have general police powers, so any purpose they aren't expressly Constitutionally forbidden to pursue is a valid public purpose, as distinct from the federal government being one of granted…

How is using property to profit private business "for public use"?

> "[the decision eliminates] any distinction between private and public use of property—and thereby effectively delete[s] the words 'for public use' from the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment."

> "This deferential shift in phraseology enables the Court to hold, against all common sense, that a costly urban-renewal project whose stated purpose is a vague promise of new jobs and increased tax revenue, but which is also suspiciously agreeable to the Pfizer Corporation, is for a 'public use.'"

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in perpetuity Or until the current owners convince a court of law to extinguish the conservation easement.

You should research what’s required to do so and the odds of it occurring. Only in rare/limited circumstances can the easement be terminated, and the IRS has some oversight into this because of the tax consequences of these easements (as you can claim a charitable tax deduction for donating and extinguishing the development capability of the parcel).

I've done the first part [0]. But I don't know an easy way to assess the second part. Clearly congress intended for it to be difficult, but the idea that a conservation easement is in fact permanent should always have an asterisk next to it.

[0]: https://www.landcan.org/article/extinguishing-transferring-a...

Re: Can we protect land for nature and carbon by simply buying it up?

#90
post #7

In the United States, the American Prairie Reserve [1] is doing something along these lines in the area around the Wyoming/Montana border. In particular, their purchases (which often include private ranches that come up for sale) focus on building those corridors between existing public lands, effectively creating much larger continuous ecosystems that this article mentioned. It's probably easier to do in the United…

> where public water resources are being abused to farm a desert

You are incredibly short-sighted and your implied policy direction seems to favor human extinction.

"Over a third of the country's vegetables and two-thirds of the country's fruits and nuts are grown in California."

https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/Statistics/

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