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I regret my website redesign

mtlynch.io

121–130 of 789 posts

Re: I regret my website redesign

#121
post #37

I am pretty sure there are a handful of good (based on Tailwind CSS) template generators which will produce results superior to the pages you received. Sure, you'd need to hire someone to do the logo and the custom icons, but I am certain that would not cost you anywhere near $46k. Furthermore, I cannot comprehend how this actually happened even if you shared all the details. Holy shit, for $46k you could have gotten…

how does one contact you?

fartingwizard[at]hhhhhsssshssss[dot]dev

I primarily code in Python so that's why the weird domain name.

Re: I regret my website redesign

#122
post #44

I have seen many outsourcing projects with my coachees and with founders, I've managed my own and cancelled several when I was called in to fix them. The key to this kind of work is to understand: The agency is not your buddy, they have very different goals than you have. Too often do I seen people who have nice chats with the agency over a coffee. They are not your friends. You need to write the contract to align th…

Thanks for reading! I have a different philosophy when it comes to hiring in that I assume the people working with me are honest and they're motivated to do their jobs well. I'm paying for their time, and I assume they'll use their time effectively. If they can't use their time effectively, I terminate the hire, but I don't try to fix it with different policies. I agree that there are payment schemes that will cause…

You're getting a little beat up here...I'm not piling on, I am actually interested, because I need to reinforce my skill in this area, do you have any learning to share about how to better assess the character/ethics of whom you are selecting?

I do appreciate your honest assessment of your project. One of my investors is pushing me to build a team of outsourced workers; it seems suboptimal to me to say the least. I find the clues you share in retrospect to be helpful. Thanks.

Re: I regret my website redesign

#123
Huge respect for your TinyPilot project (especially for the free version of the software over at https://github.com/tiny-pilot/tinypilot), but I think you were ripped off and not enough care/attention was given to your page :-(

I'm not trying to be one of those people who say, you gave too much money for something I would create in 2 weeks with only 4k, but I'm trying to give a friendly advice to a fellow software engineer :-)

Two things that should be fixed in revision 2.0 of your page:

- If we select the "Product" option from the top menu, we're taken directly to the order page for the TinyPilot Voyager 2. If we go to the root page for the products (https://tinypilotkvm.com/product/) we get a page not found!!!

- Although you're also selling something else, the TinyPilot Pro software (over at https://tinypilotkvm.com/product/tinypilot-pro) this isn't visible in the "Product" selection or from the main page. Maybe you should rename this selection to "Products" since you have at least 2 things you sell. The page for buying the software is only referenced from the Voyager2 page and from nowhere else.

Re: I regret my website redesign

#124
From the article: “The real issue, [WebAgency CEO] said, was that I was their only hourly client. I would always be at the mercy of long-term retainer clients pre-empting my project.”

— and —

From the article: “They were so excited about the project and got carried away, but he was going to remove the hours they’d spent redesigning the blog.”

___

That’s bait-and-switch in my opinion and might very well be illegal.

My suggestion would be to immediately stop talking about this to random people on the internet and speak to an attorney specializing in contract law. Prepare a brief covering what you did in the blog, have copies of any emails, specs, contracts, etc. — and have them clarify if there was a material breach of contract that would warrant damages and/or any evidence showing the web agency committed illegal acts.

I would also be very careful about identifying the company, since they might file for legal damages. If the CEO’s first name is real, I would immediately remove it from your blog and the reference to finding them on HN to make any claim you did identify them harder.

Re: I regret my website redesign

#125

I have seen many outsourcing projects with my coachees and with founders, I've managed my own and cancelled several when I was called in to fix them. The key to this kind of work is to understand: The agency is not your buddy, they have very different goals than you have. Too often do I seen people who have nice chats with the agency over a coffee. They are not your friends. You need to write the contract to align th…

> they have very different goals than you have

I've been seeing stories like this about out of control software projects as long as I've been working as a developer (so since about 1992). The conclusion is always that the root cause is either malice or incompetence - but it's awfully suspicious that software is conspicuously alone in attracting this much incompetent malice. Of course, we hear stories like this about general contractors, but they're the exception rather than the rule - for the most part, when somebody hires somebody else to build a house, they get a house and it costs mostly what they were quoted up front and takes mostly as long as they were told it was going to take.

While I guess nobody would take time to write about a software project that went exactly as predicted, my experience is that those are the exception rather than the rule, and the cases where a software project was accurately quoted in advance are relatively trivial projects.

I can understand why the people who are writing the checks want software projects to be predictable, but in 30 years of practice, I've never figured out a way to accurately predict them, nor have I met anybody else who could. I've met a lot of people who accuse me (and software developers in general) of malicious incompetence for not being able to foretell projects in advance, I have yet to meet one who rolls up their sleeves and says, "here, let me show you how to estimate this stuff accurately" except in very abstract terms like "first write down every task you're going to do, then write down how long each task is going to take, and then add up those numbers and voila! Estimate complete!"

Re: I regret my website redesign

#127

> Why didn’t you just use a Shopify template? If I could go back to when I first created the website, I would have made it a simple Shopify store with a custom theme. That's the biggest take away here. Unless you have a unique need, use an off the shelf solution.

Yeah then people wonder why people prefer going with Wix/Squarespace etc

That's why. It also tones the "customer nitpicking every detail" way way down, when you can only pick from set choices.

Re: I regret my website redesign

#128
post #3

Author here. Happy to take any feedback or answer any questions about this post.

I liked your original design. Simpler, to the point, and lower contrast so my eyes don't bleed. Also I am utterly floored at how long programming a web page takes even for these "professionals". Yet another profession that pays way better for way less work than mine (scientist).

> Also I am utterly floored at how long programming a web page takes even for these "professionals". Yet another profession that pays way better for way less work than mine (scientist).

Opinion from a web dev who has great respect for scientists: Our work isn't easy, but what you're seeing here is less reflective of the difficulty of the task than the insane variability in web dev pricing. This same body of work from the blog post could've been anywhere from a totally free template (it honestly kinda looks like one) to a $25/hr freelance job to this ripoff $175/hr agency, or even $150k+ if some inexperienced startup in-housed it and gave it months of back-and-forth stakeholder meetings. It's crazy how much variance there is in the cost and pricing of simple web projects. It's pretty much just pulling a number out of thin air and finding someone willing to pay that. It's very much a "what the market will bear" pricing model rather than "how do I recoup my education/training/equipment/etc. costs" model... i.e., it's a speculative bubble pricing with no real relationship to costs that I can see.

Certainly I think my profession deserves a livable wage, like any other. However, while my work is difficult, it's not any more so than a scientist's, or teacher's, or truck driver or park worker or garbage collector or landscaper. But more so than the difficulty, again, is the variability.

Over the last 5 years, some clients were paying me $20/hr, others $35/hr, others $150/hr (I actually had to negotiate that down because I felt like we were ripping off our clients... but my partner wouldn't budge much because it would impact his hourly rate too, sigh). That last job was at an ripoff agency similar to the one in the OP's blog post... I was getting paid that mostly to move pixels up and down a page (adjusting whitespace between paragraphs) on a simple Wordpress theme. Meanwhile, the $35/hr job had me working on everything from SQL to CDNs to in-memory caches to maintaining LAMP and email servers -- skills that were orders of magnitude more difficult than what I was doing for the Wordpress agency. There is no rhyme or rhythm to how anything in this industry is priced beyond "this is what we think customers will pay".

It is, I think, one of the great tragedies of capitalism that so much wealth and labor value is locked away in growth bubbles that invest not in social good but speculative ROI. If our society were saner, teachers, civil servants, vets, etc. would be better off than CEOs and mid-level tech management. But nope, so much wealth goes to people who ultimately contribute little to nothing to society at large. Who cares if Google launches a 7th chat app? It's all just a big ol' worthless bubble of pyramid schemes. What a waste of human potential.

Today I work at a solar manufacturing company because I at least believe in the social good of its output. If I were to switch to tech proper, I'd probably make 2x-3x the money even though my skills would be largely the same. But I don't want to do that because it feels... dirty, like I'm contributing to the overall decline of our ruthless trickle-up society, working on worthless projects that only serve to make venture capitalists richer at the expense of regular working people. When I hear my peers in big tech arguing about total compensation and stock valuation even though they already make like 5x median wage... I don't envy them, I just feel sorry that they're so detached from reality. When this bubble bursts it's going to be a eye-opener for our society, and I hope it causes a moment's pause and forces people to ask, "What the hell were we doing from 1990 to 2020? Why did we spend three decades chasing advertising bubbles while everything was crumbling around us?"

Re: I regret my website redesign

#129
Always love your writing, mtlynch. FWIW, I really do like the redesign. The logo is great, as are the illustrations. They obviously had a talented bunch, even if mismanaged. This is one of my fears with hiring freelancers, and why I really haven't done it so far. I could use the help, but I feel like it'd suck my time and wallet to get the results I'm after. Probably just haven't talked to the right one yet, if such a thing exists.

I worked as the dev lead for an ad agency in the past it always came down to sales under pricing, not listening to the team about what they thought costs would be. Like, "oh yeah, we can definitely build this complicated ecom site for $10k!" -- no way, mumbled the team. What you spent was pretty typical for a "$10k" project. And then frustrated clients would be due to PMs not being truthful about what the situation really is, spewing the same BS that sales sold them on.

Maybe that was the point, and the business model -- taking advantage of your clients? I wouldn't put it past them, at least when it came to the ad agency I worked for. It wasn't my favorite place to work, that's for sure. Constantly being over budget and past deadlines sucked.

Towards the end of my venture there, I almost always recommended using Shopify for any ecom project, to stay within the project's budget, instead of WooCommerce, Spree, or Magento (never again). Even if 9/10 times it didn't happen that way, I still made the recommendation.

But these days, a very simple ecom site could even be built by offloading onto Stripe Checkout, though I'd still probably go with Shopify to future-proof on product catalog growth.

Re: I regret my website redesign

#130

I have seen many outsourcing projects with my coachees and with founders, I've managed my own and cancelled several when I was called in to fix them. The key to this kind of work is to understand: The agency is not your buddy, they have very different goals than you have. Too often do I seen people who have nice chats with the agency over a coffee. They are not your friends. You need to write the contract to align th…

> Tip: Do not take the developers they give you/have on the project. Interview all of them and reject the bad ones. This is really good advise and probably will save many people months of headaches. You wouldn't just hire someone random HR throws your way, why do that with an agency you've never worked with before?

> why do that with an agency you've never worked with before?

I don’t see how this works? You ask agency for a developer for your project, you get a developer for the project. Will you just withold payment if they don’t use developers you like?

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