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Gitlab and remote work

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Re: Gitlab and remote work

#101

Post by whynotmaybe »

tristor wrote: post #89

I appreciate a lot of what Gitlab has done, but as someone who has been permanently remote for nearly a decade, I don't really consider them to be a leader in remote work. One of my biggest issues with Gitlab is that they pay based on locality, many other fully remote companies pay below Bay Area salaries, but they pay flat globally, meaning you can be location-independent without a pay-cut and it helps to bring in h…

I'm still not convinced whether it's good or bad.

Yes, you should be paid regarding the value you bring BUT by paying me fairly for my market, they can hire more people, especially in emerging countries.

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#102

Post by sprkwd »

codegeek wrote: post #54
rnk wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw a list of companies that paid the same regardless of location. There were even a few bay area companies that didn't cut your pay when you moved away, I wish I had that handy.

Can you name a few who will pay a Senior Software Engineer the same salary in Bay Area vs say Bangalore, India ? I am curious.

37 Signals. https://37signals.com/19

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#103

Post by leeoniya »

tristor wrote: post #95
tomnipotent wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Locally-adjusted pay is a fluke if revenues are not locally constrained (like a coffee shop). It's just another way employers try and nickle and dime workers, and it's sad that a large class of workers have been brainwashed to support it because somehow they're more upset at the other workers making more, than the company trying to pull a fast on on them. "But you would make so much more than your neighbors!". Fuck o…

> You also won't see this for senior management. As a VP/C-level, I've never had a potential employer put pressure on salary during a negotiation because of my location (though it's always been domestic). It's never even come up besides relocation discussions. This is absolutely true and it's because executives usually have spent at least some amount of time doing "sales" type roles where they learn what value sellin…

> This is absolutely true and it's because executives usually have spent at least some amount of time doing "sales" type roles where they learn what value selling is.

or because there are two orders of magnitude fewer VPs/C-levels than line workers. an extra +100k for a single unicorn employee is easier to justify than +20k comp x 100 replaceable employees

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#104

Post by yencabulator »

codegeek wrote: post #75
wwarek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a few months ago this[0] jobs platform for exactly that - remote, location-independent salary - was discussed on HN [1]. [0] https://remotewide.co/ [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31225138

Ok I will bite. I randomly checked one company called "MotorK" [0] and I found this line in the job description "Work remotely from any of the countries we operate in". So thats not work from anywhere in the world. I am sure devil is always in the details. I know this is 1 example but I doubt a company will hire from anywhere in the world and pay the same salaries to you. There always will be restrictions. Ok now I a…

> and I found this line in the job description "Work remotely from any of the countries we operate in".

Outside of contracting and business-to-business deals, I think we're still in a world where it's hard to legally employ people in countries where you don't have a legal presence (outside of cases where that has been explicitly agreed-upon, like EU).

Something as basic as tax withholding can be literally impossible without creating a subsidiary in that country.

Looking at remotewide.co, they don't say anything about having to accept applicants from all over the world. That is, think SF vs Idaho, not SF vs Siberia.

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#105

Post by tomnipotent »

slg wrote: post #100
tomnipotent wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Locally-adjusted pay is a fluke if revenues are not locally constrained (like a coffee shop). It's just another way employers try and nickle and dime workers, and it's sad that a large class of workers have been brainwashed to support it because somehow they're more upset at the other workers making more, than the company trying to pull a fast on on them. "But you would make so much more than your neighbors!". Fuck o…

>I care what the company is earning from my labor and getting my fair share. I have no problem extorting more from a company that has no problem extorting more from me. This just feels naive to me. You aren't being paid based on what your labor is earning your company. That number is totally irrelevant in a world in which businesses can run on VC money instead of actual revenue. You are paid based of both yours and y…

> You aren't being paid based on what your labor is earning your company.

I've managed P&L at multiple companies. Salaries are inevitably influenced by cash flow projections and revenues, and are absolutely aligned in multiple dimensions to revenues.

> cost of living shouldn't matter and maybe pay everyone $110k

No, they're going to pay whatever their margins can tolerate while competing for labor. If Google can manage the salaries they have with staff living mostly in high cost-of-living cities, so they can also support those margins with staff living anywhere else in the world.

Why is it only capitalism when the company is greedy?

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#106

Post by Vinnl »

kodah wrote: post #85
Vinnl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is: why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco? I'd expect the incentive to be to indeed pay the same for the same work, but that pay would be the lowest they can get away with. (i.e. I wouldn't expect that to lead to Silicon Valley salaries all over the world.) Unless it's not actually the same work, and location affects work. It does at least affect gross pay in any case, I suppose.

> why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco? I can't answer for GitLab, but widely, people often believe that San Francisco has an "exceptional" talent pool and that companies pay a premium for that because of competition.

But in that case, it's not the same work, no? You can simply pay more for exceptional talent regardless of location, just as how org (theoretically, at least) already differentiate pay based on skill level within the same location.

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#107

Post by slg »

tomnipotent wrote: post #105
slg wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I care what the company is earning from my labor and getting my fair share. I have no problem extorting more from a company that has no problem extorting more from me. This just feels naive to me. You aren't being paid based on what your labor is earning your company. That number is totally irrelevant in a world in which businesses can run on VC money instead of actual revenue. You are paid based of both yours and y…

> You aren't being paid based on what your labor is earning your company. I've managed P&L at multiple companies. Salaries are inevitably influenced by cash flow projections and revenues, and are absolutely aligned in multiple dimensions to revenues. > cost of living shouldn't matter and maybe pay everyone $110k No, they're going to pay whatever their margins can tolerate while competing for labor. If Google can mana…

>I've managed P&L at multiple companies. Salaries are inevitably influenced by cash flow projections and revenues, and are absolutely aligned in multiple dimensions to revenues.

How mature were those companies? Did they have investors willing to accept extended periods of time without profit like many VC and Wall Street investors have come to accept from many tech companies? Did increases in cash flow or revenue lead to across the board raises? Or did cash flow and revenue exist purely as a cap on salaries?

>No, they're going to pay whatever their margins can tolerate while competing for labor. If Google can manage the salaries they have with staff living mostly in high cost-of-living cities, so they can also support those margins with staff living anywhere else in the world.

Yes, Google can support those margins, but why would they? Why would Google pay a developer a dollar more than they need to? If they can get the same work out of employees in low cost of living areas, they will expect to pay all employees low cost of living salaries.

>Why is it only capitalism when the company is greedy?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. There was no positive value judgement on my use of the word "capitalism". I was not praising companies for this behavior. I was making a value neutral observation on their behavior. Don't take my observation of behavior as and endorsement of that behavior.

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#108

Post by Vinnl »

rr888 wrote: post #67
Vinnl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't get is: why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco? I'd expect the incentive to be to indeed pay the same for the same work, but that pay would be the lowest they can get away with. (i.e. I wouldn't expect that to lead to Silicon Valley salaries all over the world.) Unless it's not actually the same work, and location affects work. It does at least affect gross pay in any case, I suppose.

> why would they pay more for someone from San Francisco? Because they probably want someone from the area working in the company. If they pay a flat rate globally, they only have to pay average or lower and get great people in LCOL areas. But then you have a company with no people in CA or NY, which means you dont have contact with local trends or contacts in the big tech companies.

Right, so then location does affect the quality of the work provided. Although it then still is weird to base differentiated pay on cost of living / local market rates; surely those don't all correlate with the quality of the work delivered? If you can get an engineer with the same skills from Spain for less money than you'd pay for the equivalent in Germany, why would you hire the latter?

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#109

Post by CoastalCoder »

tristor wrote: post #89

I appreciate a lot of what Gitlab has done, but as someone who has been permanently remote for nearly a decade, I don't really consider them to be a leader in remote work. One of my biggest issues with Gitlab is that they pay based on locality, many other fully remote companies pay below Bay Area salaries, but they pay flat globally, meaning you can be location-independent without a pay-cut and it helps to bring in h…

I don't really understand appealing to the concept of "fair" regarding salary.

I guess I'm showing some assumptions about labor being a free market, but isn't your salary by definition acceptable to both you and the employer?

Re: Gitlab and remote work

#110

Post by rad_gruchalski »

emerongi wrote: post #7
belter wrote: post #2

Still paying according to location for the same work?

What's the problem with that? If Gitlab is not paying top of the market salaries, then they're just going to miss out on top talent, and clearly they're fine with it. It's a free market after all, you don't have to join Gitlab.

The problem is that they don’t offer „location adjusted pricing”. An engineer in Serbia contributes the same value as an engineer in NY to every buck turned by GitLab.
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