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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#551

Post by bergenty »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #537
bergenty wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drowning or having your leg cut off are not chronic conditions. I think it makes a lot of sense to analyze chronic problems in the brain through the chemical lens.

>I think it makes a lot of sense to analyze chronic problems in the brain through the chemical lens. Thats the basically the point I am taking issue with. Myopic focus on chemistry can be terribly misleading. There will always be a chemical component because we are beings made up of chemical components. a chemical imbalance is by definition always going to be part of the problem. That does not mean it is always the b…

There really isn’t a lot more going on in there though based on our current understanding of the brain. It’s neurons and synapses and all the neurotransmitters that regulate it all. What exactly are you suggesting could be the problem?

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#552

Post by DontchaKnowit »

_yoqn wrote: post #97
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true in terms of finding a solution to depression, I do think that the societal norms of our society are extremely conducive to these sort of depressive behaviors. E.g. many societies are setup to make these kinds of behaviors (self isolation, dopamine seeking hedonic treadmill type behavior, etc) very difficult to engage in without being chastised

I see your point, and my argument supports it. Who creates "societal norms" other than the individuals that make up society? It starts with individual action to reverse the dwindling spiral.

Sure. It is certainly a "collective action" type problem.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#553

Post by astrange »

an-honest-moose wrote: post #270
astrange wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major depressive disorder isn't the same thing as feeling sad about your job.

That is an incredibly dismissive and reductive argument to make. "Feeling sad about your job" isn't limited to burnt out software engineers with a safety net. It can also apply to, for example, someone stuck in a shitty, low paying job with few, if any, prospects for better employment. The lack of a path to a decent future can, in itself, be incredibly demoralizing, even if your present circumstances might be decent.…

That isn't major depressive disorder either. Even if those people think their life sucks, they're capable of, say, getting out of bed every day and don't regularly attempt suicide.

Russian serfs might've revolted when they got the chance, but they were more or less psychologically normal until then. Their society adapts to not kill them all. (Or they all become alcoholics or something.)

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#554

Post by Throwaway45htp »

hn8305823 wrote: post #465
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear: The serotonin deficiency hypothesis has been floated for a long time as one of the possible underlying changes involved in depression etiology. It’s not even a stretch, given that we can find upregulations of the serotonin transporter in response to chronic unpredictable mild stress, the fact that 5-HTP (serotonin precursors) supplementation can boost mood, and the fact that many drugs of abuse operate t…

I've tried lots of natural anti-depressant remedies. Background: I've suffered with major depression my entire life with frequent suicidal ideation and several near-suicides. It's fairly seasonal and wile it happens throughout the year the worst time is in the winter near the solstice. I've also struggled with difficulty falling asleep since very young childhood, though that has gotten somewhat better with age (over…

Thanks for your post, and thanks for whoever vouched for this. I have a similar background to you, including age, living in a northern latitude with short winter days, long term sleep issues, and suicidal ideation.

5-HTP - There seems to be wide variation in the formulations available from manufacturers. Some have given me no issues at all, another brand, of the same strength, consistently leads to intense nausea and vomiting, followed by a significantly altered mental state. Almost tripping, and yes, I'm familiar with that.

THC - agree with your comments, but by far the biggest advantage for me is that it enabled me to completely quit drinking. Alcohol is terrible in that it will temporarily shut those intrusive thoughts off, but then they seem supercharged them when they inevitably return after a few hours. Drinking definitely exacerbates my actual depression even if it masks some symptoms.

I do use melatonin occasionally/as required but not super often. It's very effective as a sleep aid, but I have not noticed any antidepressive effects in myself. Valerian is also an extremely effective sleep aid for me. Will have to research L-Dopa.

Consider trying Sceletium Tortuosum extract (Kanna). It has been commercialized as "Zembrin" and is available in OTC supplements. There are peer-reviewed studies indicating that it is safe and effective, and personally, I've found it to noticeably effective against anxiety, less so for depression. As supplements go, it's inexpensive.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8124331/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828542/

Finally, psilocybin has been revolutionary for managing my mental health, and specifically depression. I found microdosing to be ineffective. A full trip sets me right for several weeks, to the point where it is startling when the intrusive thoughts start up again.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#555

Post by ok_dad »

bowsamic wrote: post #547
ok_dad wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It isn't whataboutism. I'm simply pointing out that the same argument people use to disparage Tom Cruise also applies to religious figures that they respect far more. I'm pointing out ignorance about other religions, it isn't whataboutism at all.

In Scientology's case, there is a bit more to it than just believing some monks can fly.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#556

Post by eurasiantiger »

becquerel wrote: post #224
eurasiantiger wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before, the body was in chains, but the mind was free. Now, the mind is in chains.

What evidence do you have for this? Do you think chattel slaves of the USA weren't broken in mind - indoctrinated into Christianity, stripped of their original languages, culture and names? That was not some novel evil created by Southerners - it's the tried-and-true method for enslaving populations throughout history. But I'm sure the existence of TikTok is an existential threat.

How successfully?

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#557

Post by randomopining »

smolder wrote: post #122

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the prominence of depression is largely caused by a broken interface with the world at large. The traps created by modern society wherein you struggle for other people's benefit are better designed than ever before. What our social machine procedurally treats as progress is advances in subjugation. Depression may often be an artifact of "efficiency" with respect to extracting v…

Equal and opposite reaction. Right now may literally be the best time to be alive in the world history for those who have direction, purpose, inner strength. Endless possibilities and safety nets.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#558

Post by s1artibartfast »

bergenty wrote: post #551
s1artibartfast wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it makes a lot of sense to analyze chronic problems in the brain through the chemical lens. Thats the basically the point I am taking issue with. Myopic focus on chemistry can be terribly misleading. There will always be a chemical component because we are beings made up of chemical components. a chemical imbalance is by definition always going to be part of the problem. That does not mean it is always the b…

There really isn’t a lot more going on in there though based on our current understanding of the brain. It’s neurons and synapses and all the neurotransmitters that regulate it all. What exactly are you suggesting could be the problem?

This is the perfect example of myopic thinking coming from the chemical Focus

If your only tool is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail.

The brain is a lot more than chemistry, and that's not even looking at the human being and their interactions with the environment.

there are patterns encoded in the structure and biology of the brain. There are psychological feedback loops and complicated interactions between a human and their environment.

Saying it must be a chemical imbalance is akin to debugging a malfunctioning computer and saying it must be a signal error from a loose wire. It ignores programming sending signals on those wires and it ignores the input to the machine from the environment

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#559

Post by _yoqn »

jahewson wrote: post #205
_yoqn wrote: post #130

[dead]

The document you’ve linked to is whacky propaganda from the Church of Scientology.

There's nothing but claims backed by facts in that document. Your ad hominem attack is not a valid argument.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#560

Post by dang »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #483
dang wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post offtopic flamewar comments, regardless of how wrong other people are or you feel they are. It just makes everything worse. Also, please don't go on about downvotes. That's in the site guidelines too: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: I assume you're talking about https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32161183 , which was correctly downvoted for being a flamewar comment. Please do…

> Please don't post comments like that or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32161488 This is the one I was referring to. I’ll admit that the first one you linked was not productive, but I’m reasonably sure you’re taking a less charitable interpretation of this one in light of that. As far as what makes “everything” worse, the prevalence of attitudes like those I was challenging are the reason I almost died without…

> But if they’re politely stated, no harm no foul?

That's not at all how we moderate HN. But IIRC (it's been a few hours since I've read the thread) your comments put an extreme personal skew on the comments you were taking offense at and then breaking the rules in reply to.

It's natural and understandable that this happens sometimes on topics where you feel strongly (I don't mean you personally, but any of us). However, natural and understandable does not equal ok. On the contrary: we all need to catch ourselves when we're getting carried away like that, and either edit our posts to be within the site guidelines, or just walk away. I find it helpful, in such cases, to remember that the internet is to a first approximation wrong about everything, and there's nothing that any of us can do about it.

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