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High property taxes are good

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Re: High property taxes are good

#261

Post by vxNsr »

igorkraw wrote: post #31
jherskovic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was a supply of cheaper housing, I'd agree with this wholeheartedly. Part of the problem is that, in a lot of places (SF, NYC, Seattle, etc) you can price folks into homelessness. Sure, no one is entitled to live in a specific area, but for those who built their lives there, have a community, family, it's cruel to tell them "move to Nowheresville, OH so you can afford a roof"

I mean, either you are cruel to home owners who have capital or you are cruel to poor people. I know where my priorities would be. Or we could of course try to remove the cruelty completely by not using a market system to manage a natural monopoly (space in a community). But if you choose cruelty, at least be cruel to those that can choose to suffer as opposed that cannot really escape

You were just told that your plan will cause people to become homeless and your response is “I’ll worry about them when they’re homeless.” You’re a perfect politician: make plans with no thoughts to unintended consequences even when you’re warned about them.

Re: High property taxes are good

#262

Post by ROTMetro »

nisegami wrote: post #137
sudden_dystopia wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, get rid of property taxes and completely overhaul the tax system. You could easily replace property taxes with a VAT which I would find much preferable because it’s more flexible. Illinois property taxes robbed my family of a farm that had been in our family for 200 years. My grandparents simply couldn’t afford $20k in taxes every damn year. Patently absurd.

That's obviously not ideal for your family, but it's precisely what property taxes (or more directly a land value tax) is designed to do. If your grandparents couldn't use the land in a way that covered the property taxes, then the argument is that the use of the land is likely inefficient and it would be better overall if the land was being used more productively. It sounds like the system did exactly what it was su…

It may be what property taxes are designed to do but the social agreement that allows them is that taxes are designed to raise funds, not force people out of their homes. The Romans tried this. They ended up with their citizen farmers walking off the land because of the taxes, and ended up going from some of the most advanced farmers to not being able to feed themselves.

Re: High property taxes are good

#263

Post by slt2021 »

Originami wrote: post #138
kashkhan wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. USA has about 2.5 billion acres. 1/4 acre per person in an average area tax free is reasonable.

Just allow the elderly to accrue property/land tax debts against the value of the property, redeemed when sold/transferred or on death.

reverse mortgage should do the same trick

Re: High property taxes are good

#264

Post by horsawlarway »

raldi wrote: post #246
chadash wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem (IMO) is that it's not so simple to value land. Where I live, being two blocks over can make a huge difference. It's easy to say "you paid $500k for your house, so we're gonna tax you on $500k". It's much harder to accurately say what someone would have paid for the land were it not developed. I understand the benefits of LVT, but how do you solve this? Are there any good examples of governments t…

Just let property owners declare a value for their land, and give anyone the right to buy it for 120% of that value at any time, with the existing owner given a grace period where they can restate their estimate.

My strong suspicion is that this will completely fuck over the elderly and marginalized communities.

It also requires property owners to do EXTENSIVE research and information gathering CONSTANTLY to ensure that the number they put down is reasonable.

Many of them literally can't (ex: my 87 year old Neighbor Phylis doesn't care what her house is worth, because she plans to die in it, and isn't seeking to maximize utility. Instead she wants to pass peacefully in the house she remembers raising her kids in, and has lived in for the last 50 years. She has no car, is in a wheelchair, and uses basically no online services - how is she going to go evaluate the right value for her house?).

---

Basically - this plan sounds great for 5 seconds and then you realize people would literally revolt the second you pass it.

Re: High property taxes are good

#265

Post by rcpt »

kashkhan wrote: post #37
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #6

Land value taxes are even better. Property taxes provide a disincentive to making the land more productive. A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents.

property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. USA has about 2.5 billion acres. 1/4 acre per person in an average area tax free is reasonable.

In many states low income seniors can opt out of property taxes and take a lien on the house instead. This way they feel zero tax pressure no matter what happens to the local economy.

Examples are California Tax Postponement Program and New Jersey senior freeze.

Re: High property taxes are good

#266

Post by rcpt »

dragonwriter wrote: post #198
Johnny555 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has about 2.5 billion acres I don't see how that's relevant, not all land is equally well suited for housing, especially among the elderly who are likely to need some sort of living assistance and regular access to healthcare. property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. I think something like California's Prop 13 that puts a cap on property tax incre…

> I think something like California's Prop 13 that puts a cap on property tax increases is a better idea Prop 13 is one of the worst ideas in taxation ever. It would be better just to let the aged and disabled freely defer property taxes beyond a certain, income-based level (and maybe also to let other people do the same with certain limits on total deferred amount relative to assessed value for time-unlimited deferr…

We have that already. The California Tax Postponement Program. It stacks on top of Prop 13.

Prop 13 is just a handout, it could disappear overnight and grandma wouldn't have to pay a dime.

Re: High property taxes are good

#267

Post by horsawlarway »

bbbobbb wrote: post #260
raldi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just let property owners declare a value for their land, and give anyone the right to buy it for 120% of that value at any time, with the existing owner given a grace period where they can restate their estimate.

I don't get the joke. So in your scenario people are basically not allowed to own land and the benefit is what?

There is no benefit, this is a terrible plan.

Marginally shorter cycles before property becomes more useful in exchange for completely fucking over the elderly, marginalized groups, and those without free capital.

It's a bonkers bad idea.

Re: High property taxes are good

#268

Post by ROTMetro »

kashkhan wrote: post #128
Johnny555 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has about 2.5 billion acres I don't see how that's relevant, not all land is equally well suited for housing, especially among the elderly who are likely to need some sort of living assistance and regular access to healthcare. property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. I think something like California's Prop 13 that puts a cap on property tax incre…

land use must be fair. You should tax excessive ownership of land. Most old do not live in assisted care. ANd healthcare is independent of land ownership. CA is extremely screwed up on how it taxes. I used to live in Cupertino where some people were paying taxes on 2 million dollar lots valued at 100k.

Yes, people who have the property value go up around them should be kicked out of their homes. Goodbye old people and minorities who live in affordable neighborhoods that become gentrified. Kick them out on the street for failing to plan for possible future dynamics in their neighborhoods. It's the only fair thing to do.

Re: High property taxes are good

#269

Post by yellowapple »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #133
yellowapple wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the difference between the two in reality? One taxes the land and the building(s) on it. The other only taxes the former. In practice, this means that while property taxes and land value taxes both penalize speculation, LVTs more precisely do so, without the side effect property taxes have of penalizing construction. > However better-looking homes are then a signal that drive up demand for (and therefore pri…

> Even assuming that effect does happen, it'd be considerably worse under a property tax. So your answer is to dismiss my position without evidence? Your point that property tax is worse than LVT isn't justified by your claim. If land values are determined by government assessment like property values are, then you're still paying property tax, albeit with an obfuscated input for improvement in the calculation which…

> So your answer is to dismiss my position without evidence?

My evidence is your evidence. If you're arguing that a parcel of land increases in value due to the existence of improvements on neighboring parcels, then so, too, would improvements on the parcel in question be more valuable (since they're already built in a desirable location). Hence: the impact for land tax + improvement tax would be worse under your premise than the impact for land tax alone.

In reality, the "niceness" of surrounding homes is hardly a factor; proximity to economic centers (be it directly or by proximity to rapid transit) is typically one of the two primary drivers of land values (the other being geography).

Re: High property taxes are good

#270

Post by honkycat »

mdcds wrote: post #223
justinzollars wrote: post #47

This community is deranged. All forms of taxation are messed up, the funds end up in grifters pockets, funding wars, or in black holes. The last place I want my money is in a politicians pocket. But this community overwhelmingly supports this concept. If a slave is taxed at 100% and an indentured servant is taxed at 20% - what does that make you?

What was the original mandate for the US Fed Gov? Focus on international affairs and waging war, and let states handle the rest?

You realize that was almost 250 years ago at this point.

Constitutionaliam is a grift run by conservatives to smoke screen their agendas. Nobody argues it in good faith.

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