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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#541

Post by hirvi74 »

oasisbob wrote: post #488
moth-fuzz wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend that's convinced that her ADHD 'causes depression' because her brain does not produce 'enough dopamine'. I'm noticing more and more among my peers a mythology around brain chemicals that's about as accurate as the four humors but with a scientific-sounding veneer. All brain function (and thus all bodily function, because the brain is the whole person /s) can be traced back to the presence or absence o…

The low-dopamine hypothesis for ADHD is a legitimate idea still being actively studied.

> legitimate idea still being actively studied.

Yes, but it is not conclusive.

I for one believe there are multiple types of ADHD. Be it lifestyle induced, lead-exposure induced, TBI induced, genetic, etc.. Us humans like to slap labels on things, but life is rarely so cut and dry.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#542

Post by wizofaus »

rustybelt wrote: post #519
N1H1L wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNA is spaghetti code exemplified. We are carried around tons of dead viral DNA for example - what amounts to shipping code with older code commented out.

I'm using this argument in my next code review meeting.

As a reviewer I'd then insist that your code was thrown into a software-eats-software world and given a few million reproductive cycles to see how it fares. If it's still thriving you'll get your PR approval.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#543

Post by hirvi74 »

InfiniteRand wrote: post #445

In a lot of ways the study of mental illness is like the war against cancer, you can expect perpetual expectations of miracle cures being made while slow progress happens in the background and major reverses of assumptions sporadically occur, and therapeutically specific variants make big progress while the majority of the disease is treated by blunt tools which do offer some help but at a considerable cost

Same with Alzheimers. We finally have medications to remove the plaques of tau proteins, and... it didn't do shit.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#544

Post by wizofaus »

hammyhavoc wrote: post #515
AlwaysRock wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord. I try to tell folks all the time that to some extend you have to ignore news. Big world events are going to find their way to you. Russian invading Ukraine is going to end up being something you hear about regardless if you follow the news at all. The tragic stories of children getting bombed in Ukraine? The photos? The gory details? That likely is only waiting for you if you go searching for it. I'm not a…

I dunno about that. I know several doom-and-gloom mongers who seem to get off on sharing the woes of the world in group conversations. As a result, I've barely used Facebook or any kind of social media since the pandemic began. Quite literally, haven't used it this year except to post an interview.

Discuss: HN qualifies as "social media". Why or why not?

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#545

Post by hirvi74 »

PraetorianGourd wrote: post #244
ornornor wrote: post #223

When you look into the studies for antidepressants, the track record is abysmal. They’re not innocuous, trigger serious side effects, some are hard to quit, but more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression. And doctors often downplay or don’t mention side effects honestly because they don’t want patients to not take them. The studies justifying antidepressants as effective t…

Yeah an unregulated and uncontrolled consumption of a poorly dosed hallucinogenic is totally better than a double-blind study of SSRI/SNRI. I swear, I do not reject the possibility that hallucinogenics can cure depression better than existing meds, but the almost religious enthusiasm for such a poorly studied chemical is deeply concerning. And yes, before you accuse me of being a pharma shill, I know that the lack of…

It's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. If anti-depressants were so effective, people wouldn't be flocking to psychedelics for treatment.

Stimulants are the most useful medication we have found for ADHD. Without access to them, what do people with ADHD flock to? Caffeine, Nicotine, Alcohol, Cannabis, etc. Substances that are stimulants or can have stimulating effects.

I am no woo-woo person, but perhaps our bodies when flocking to something are trying to tell us something? Alcohol also works great for anxiety (and super dangerous), so we created benzos in alcohol's image (though I think benzos can be just as dangerous for some).

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#546

Post by d0mine »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #513
d0mine wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> medications are highly cost/effective.. You are commenting on the article that says that it is BS. The most upvoted comment on the article at the moment says "it [the ineffectiveness] is old news hardly worth mentioning"

No, the article does not say this is BS. The article is about a specific theory on anti-depressants. Not about their ineffectiveness as a whole. > Antidepressants are an effective, NICE recommended treatment for depression This fact remains. It's pretty well known in medicine that we don't really know why anti-depressants work, but they do. Different people react differently to different versions. This article is sim…

Last time I've looked into it in any detail, there were tendency for any effectiveness to vanish in repeated studies (indistinguishable from placebo).

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#547

Post by bowsamic »

ok_dad wrote: post #538
neonate wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume bowsamic's point is that people can be wrong about some things and right about others.

[flagged]

It isn't whataboutism. I'm simply pointing out that the same argument people use to disparage Tom Cruise also applies to religious figures that they respect far more. I'm pointing out ignorance about other religions, it isn't whataboutism at all.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#548

Post by bmitc »

imtringued wrote: post #288
tsimionescu wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very funny to describe SSRIs or SNRIs essentially as "happy pills". They are very unpleasant drugs to take, especially in the first month or so when starting to use them, and no one would be using them if they didn't feel there is a serious problem in their lives. Not to mention, depression takes several forms, and not all of them are related to unhappiness. A common form is related to anxiety, with people exper…

>no one would be using them if they didn't feel there is a serious purulente in their lives. You are playing into the argument, people often don't have a choice to avoid a depression inducing environment, they only have the choice of using drugs or not.

Environment is only one component of certain types of depression. It is primarily a biological phenomenon.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#549

Post by bmitc »

tsimionescu wrote: post #221
carabiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IOW: Are you ready for me to diagnose your totally normal reaction to our shitty society as mental illness so I can get you addicted to mind altering drugs for the rest of your life? https://imgur.com/Jb1mJyx Or as the Unabomber said, "Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening…

It's very funny to describe SSRIs or SNRIs essentially as "happy pills". They are very unpleasant drugs to take, especially in the first month or so when starting to use them, and no one would be using them if they didn't feel there is a serious problem in their lives. Not to mention, depression takes several forms, and not all of them are related to unhappiness. A common form is related to anxiety, with people exper…

This site has an unbelievable amount of armchair-science that gets rattled off. You are right, because depression and anxiety are primarily biological phenomena.

People looking for an actual expert discuss these things should watch Robert Sapolsky's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

For example, in the talk, he points out one of the most telltale signs of depression is waking up early, which is completely backwards from the common perception that depression is someone staying in bed all day.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#550

Post by ratww »

janeerie wrote: post #487
ratww wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it was around the same time Mo3 mentioned they took, maybe a bit more than one year and a half. It's been long, so I don't remember precisely. However I was in a quite sorry state before... I was having several panic attacks a week. My therapy alone was also not working well, I was doing twice a week. After starting it, everything started falling into place. I never had a panic attack again. I never had any do…

I would like to see more discussion of the role of SSRIs in treating anxiety, rather than depression (which always seems to be the default focus). I also suffered from panic that went away completely with SSRIs. I have never had issues with depression, but these medications gave me my life back.

Interestingly the reasoning from my doctor for me taking Escitalopram was that it was good for anxiety, so I guess there's at least some anecdotal evidence from doctors about its efficacy...
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