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In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

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Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#131
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The advantages to streetcars aren't limited to what I suggest. They also include noise and air quality advantages (hooking up to municipal power sources instead of carrying their own engines), human advantages (they tend to be more comfortable than buses, both because of road quality and size), capacity, and so forth. There are many, many situations where buses (ideally, electrified ones) are the right choice. But th…

>hooking up to municipal power sources instead of carrying their own engines You can do that with a bus >they tend to be more comfortable than buses, both because of road quality and size (1) You can make bigger buses if you want (2) There's little difference in a streetcar on a track and a bus on a flat road. And it's a lot cheaper to get flat roads than to lay track

> You can do that with a bus

Right, at which point it's a cramped, bumpier trolley. It no longer has the main advantage that buses offer, which is being able to alternate their routes based on traffic or blockages.

You can make bigger buses, but they still need to conform to a different set of safety and size standards. Trolleys can make better use of standard lane space (and frequently fit better into standard lanes in older cities, since they can articulate for turns much better).

Laying track does not have to be expensive. Small-to-mid-sized cities in Europe do it cheaply and sustainably; many of the US's cities have streets that are already graded for streetcars and could be replanted without full surveys. I won't claim that it's uniformly cheaper than running a bus network, but that's not the sole factor in our civic construction process -- we also consider quality of life, performance, and appeal.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#132
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public bus transit and private car transit are inherently in conflict. You basically can't run them on the same streets and expect the bus to not suck. You could, of course, run the bus in a dedicated, separate right-of-way to solve that problem. But like you said, just build rail at that point

> You basically can't run them on the same streets and expect the bus to not suck. That's just nonsense or specific to some areas. I spent a couple of hours on the Stagecoach buses today travelling from Paignton to Kinsgwear and then Dartmouth to Totnes and back to Paignton. The same journey by car would probably have been more expensive because of the cost of parking the car in busy tourist towns and it wouldn't hav…

Quite. Bus schedulers are very well informed on traffic patterns and account for this. Some days when things are faster then usual this means they will ask drivers to stop for a bit in order to avoid running early.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#133
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fixed route service is FAR more efficient than any sort of micro transit service can ever be Theoretically fixed route service is far more efficient. Practically, it's not because it takes a lot of demand to run at high frequency and high utilization. As an example, I live in Atlanta and it costs the system $9 per bus ride these days. And given the nature of the system and the city it usually takes people more than…

You aren’t making an apples to apples comparison though, your assertion is that it costs the system $18 for you to take a trip, but you’re only looking at the fare charges by Uber/Lyft. Uber and Lyft continue to operate at a loss, and are therefore subsidizing their rides as well. Additionally, they are able to maintain a contingent workforce that a public transit agency would likely never be able to get away with. U…

>You aren’t making an apples to apples comparison though, your assertion is that it costs the system $18 for you to take a trip, but you’re only looking at the fare charges by Uber/Lyft.

The $18 is operating cost and doesn't include capital costs. Lyft is EBIDTA profitable and Uber likely is on rides too. Their fares are enough to cover the operating cost of the system. Comparison is as apples to apples as it can be.

>Pre pandemic it looks like bus/rail cost Marta around $4.50 per trip.

Even still. To use a practical example, my kid's day care is 4 miles away. I would need 2 buses to get there by MARTA so $9 if we assume pre-pandemic costs. Lyft will take me there for between $8.93 and $14.17 with various options on shared + wait time. For a solo car for a pick up in 4 minutes it's $11.01.

Lyft will take me 9 minutes to get there while MARTA will take 46 minutes if I time everything perfectly. More realistically it's an hour which is barely faster than walking the 4 miles.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#134
this (mini-buses, dial-a-bus as it was known in the 70s) was one of the patterns in Christopher Alexander's A Pattern Language

https://www.iwritewordsgood.com/apl/patterns/apl020.htm

> Establish a system of small taxi-like buses, carrying up to six people each, radio-controlled, on call by telephone, able to provide point-to-point service according to the passengers' needs, and supplemented by a computer system which guarantees minimum detours, and minimum waiting times. Make bus stops for the mini-buses every 600 feet in each direction, and equip these bus stops with a phone for dialing a bus.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#135

In my past life I built and sold dispatch software for microtransit / on-demand rides. (UberPool as a service, more or less.) What this article doesn’t say: * Many, many cities have something similar already, but only for riders with disabilities. (“paratransit”) You need to schedule your ride the day before, but they will take you from door to door. * The cost per ride is quite high: more than $20 per ride, often. T…

Istanbul has an oddly good system, where vans run a set route, but you can ask for them to stop wherever. I feel like this would be a better balance that would allow for greater coverage, while also lowering the cost of equipment and in the very least, eliminating the need to walk as much to a stop. It's also faster because it's basically a large taxi, so once the van is full, you only stop where the passengers need. This is only a supplement there, but I think it would work better than the majority of bus set-ups currently used.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#136
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren’t making an apples to apples comparison though, your assertion is that it costs the system $18 for you to take a trip, but you’re only looking at the fare charges by Uber/Lyft. Uber and Lyft continue to operate at a loss, and are therefore subsidizing their rides as well. Additionally, they are able to maintain a contingent workforce that a public transit agency would likely never be able to get away with. U…

>You aren’t making an apples to apples comparison though, your assertion is that it costs the system $18 for you to take a trip, but you’re only looking at the fare charges by Uber/Lyft. The $18 is operating cost and doesn't include capital costs. Lyft is EBIDTA profitable and Uber likely is on rides too. Their fares are enough to cover the operating cost of the system. Comparison is as apples to apples as it can be.…

Lyft’s adjusted EBITA was $55 million in Q1, given their active rider number stands at ~19 million, at best they are likely offering rides at cost.

That still leaves out the costs incurred by the drivers. Opex for transit agencies includes maintenance, insurance and driver salaries and benefits which are much more costly than it is for Lyft.

You are right that sprawling metro areas are very well suited for mass transit, though. There does need to be a sufficient amount of demand in order for it to work.

The fact of the matter is that the main problem is a land use pattern that requires over $9 to travel to and from a child’s daycare.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#137
Back in the late-70s/early-80s the town I lived in had a thing called Dial-a-Bus which was longer than a minivan with maybe 10-15 seats, built lighter than a modern airport shuttle. It could pick you up from home and drop you off at an address, etc. I remember when the price jumped from 10 cents to 25 cents per ride. Prank calls were a thing unfortunately.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#138

Aren’t these just subsidized taxis? They don’t help with congestion, they don’t help with pollution, I don’t see how they ultimately bring down costs since you still need individual cars and drivers... Perhaps in some limited cases, multiple people going the same way at the same time can share a vehicle, but how often will that work out in practice? I basically never end up sharing an Uber/Lyft with anyone else despi…

> They don’t help with congestion Definitely not the point of these. In larger cities, bus transit is for reducing congestion without massive infrastructure investment. In smaller cities, bus transit is purely for helping people who can't/don't drive get to where they need to be. The problem is, there is not enough ridership in smaller cities for a bus to be frequent or cover a wide area. This solves that problem, bu…

Also in larger cities, large busses are frequent. If my small town ran busses every 10 or 15 minutes, there'd be a lot more riders.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary purpose of public transport (within an urban area) is reducing traffic. The vast majority of people can use private vehicles just fine, and if traffic is not an issue, the rest can use taxis. Subsidized ones if necessary. Reducing traffic is the primary goal. When there is less traffic, the city can reserve less space for streets and parking. That leaves more space for the purposes people are in the city…

> The vast majority of people can use private vehicles just fine, Roughly half the population of the UK has nowhere off road to park the car and only enough space in the road to park one or sometimes only one for each two dwellings and you risk someone else taking the space if you move your car. This means that while it might be literally true there is nonetheless a substantial number of people for whom using a priva…

You have it backwards.

Half the population of the UK lives in areas where public transport has enabled limiting the space required by traffic. In some other parts of the world, similar situations have been resolved by removing excess houses, making more space for traffic.

Also, private vehicles include bikes and scooters, which are often more appropriate for urban settings than cars.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#140

Yessss!!! There is no best one-size-for-all solution for transportation, we need lots of different methods to select the best methods for the situation. Scooters, [e-]bikes, vans, trolleys, buses, subways, trains, funiculars. (And more that have yet to be invented; personally I hope for rentable e-assist pedi-cabs to take cargo like groceries home in cities without the need for a 2-ton+ vehicle) I think this van serv…

This kind of strategy must be combined with changing the ways cities are built. Your last point about the single mom, this SHOULDNT be a problem. At all. How did people 100 years ago deal with not having access to food without a time consuming trip? They either grew their own, or they lived close enough to a place where they could buy it. The private automobile completely killed the idea of living close to what you n…

100 years ago there were no single moms. Unmarried births have increased from 19% in 1950 to 72% in 2010 for Africa-American women: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/12/e...

Largely due to the expansion of the welfare state which encourages single motherhood.

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