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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#521

Post by konfusinomicon »

72deluxe wrote: post #409
konfusinomicon wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

recently procured an acupressure spiky foot ball that was originally designed to combat depression by stimulating the vagus through the foot. I don't consider myself depressed by any means, but after a few minutes of rolling my feet aggressively over the ball and targeting a few key areas, I generally feel much better and can actually sense that my body is less stressed. everyone should have one or 2 of them

This is very interesting - is that just a general acupressure spikey ball? I am looking for one on Amazon, if you had the link? Also, reading up on the vagus how is the vagus stimulated via the foot? Reading on wikipedia on the vagus nerve I cannot see how it is connected to the foot in any way? Thanks in advance

apologies, it wasn't vagus, it was the solar plexus, a few inches back from the 2nd biggest toe. got mine from gokanjo.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#522

Post by User23 »

slibhb wrote: post #408
virtuallynathan wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They barely work better than placebo, from what I saw in my reading of the literature.

Well, placebos work fairly well for depression. And it's not like doctors can prescribe them...

They can however prescribe basically harmless pills that do more or less nothing. Low dose vitamin pills are sometimes used for this purpose.

Whether or not it's ethical for a doctor to tell a depression patient that the depression is caused by a treatable vitamin deficiency is another matter. Then again, maybe it really is caused by a lack of micronutients. After all we really don't understand depression very well.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#523

Post by TurkishPoptart »

hirvi74 wrote: post #484
moth-fuzz wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend that's convinced that her ADHD 'causes depression' because her brain does not produce 'enough dopamine'. I'm noticing more and more among my peers a mythology around brain chemicals that's about as accurate as the four humors but with a scientific-sounding veneer. All brain function (and thus all bodily function, because the brain is the whole person /s) can be traced back to the presence or absence o…

> I have a friend that's convinced that her ADHD 'causes depression' because her brain does not produce 'enough dopamine' Interesting, and she is somewhat right, but is wrong about the 'enough dopamine' part, if I understand correctly. I have heard that dopamine plays a role in ADHD (seems likely our neurotransmitters don't absorb enough, but even that is an overly simplistic explanation of the unknown and true reali…

The Andrew Huberman podcast has a great episode on the dynamics of ADHD. The brain does not properly distribute dopamine to where it wants to send it, which challenges your planning/reward matrices.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#524

Post by zasdffaa »

hammyhavoc wrote: post #512
zasdffaa wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why you say 'SEVERE' so severely. It doesn't sound like you have any direct experience of this. I had to come off them and it wasn't a problem. My biggest fear, and it was huge, was that the depression would return. It didn't.

Anecdotal. n+1.

I'm not sure what you're saying?

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#525

Post by AlwaysRock »

walrus01 wrote: post #19

I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.

I'm overall pretty happy and have a pretty great job, life, and family. I'm still often hit with waves of despair when I realize housing prices are insane, retirement feels like a joke, and the biggest issues the world is facing seem to be ignored.

It's pretty depressing if you dwell on it for any period of time.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#526

Post by dimal »

swamp40 wrote: post #452
virtuallynathan wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They barely work better than placebo, from what I saw in my reading of the literature.

They work fantastically, from what I have seen firsthand many many times. There is a very good reason for it's use in up to 20% of the population in some groups in the US. Just because we haven't pinpointed why doesn't matter a bit.

“They work fantastically” is a statement that requires many qualifiers.

They work fantastically for some subset of people. For other people, they do nothing. For other people, they have negative side effects that make them not worth whatever benefits they provide. For some people, they cause extreme negative effects when the medication is removed. For some other people, they increase the chance that they will commit suicide.

It does matter that we haven’t pinpointed why they work for some people, because if we did, we might be able to avoid those negative effects and wasted time for the people for which they don’t work.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#527

Post by zasdffaa »

MattRix wrote: post #505
zasdffaa wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why you say 'SEVERE' so severely. It doesn't sound like you have any direct experience of this. I had to come off them and it wasn't a problem. My biggest fear, and it was huge, was that the depression would return. It didn't.

I had horrible withdrawal effects coming off lexapro/escitalopram, it was literally the worst experience of my life. I spent a month with maxed-out anxiety, feeling like I was going to die any moment, waking up at night with electric shocks running through my body, etc. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.

OK, that's an SSRI which is what I had to come off (prozac), with no major issues.

I'm not at all claiming it's a fun ride for everyone, just giving my one data point that it's not inevitably awful for absolutely everyone. Sorry you had to deal with it!

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#529

Post by omniglottal »

root_axis wrote: post #518
kemiller wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ADHD causes depression because you get constant negative feedback from (many) teachers & bosses.

IMO, this hypothesis doesn't pass the smell test. One of the defining qualities of clinical depression is that personal success in life does not obviate the symptoms; there are many widely know examples of beloved and successful people being unable to overcome the burden of crushing depression.

Being beloved and successful does not negate negative feedback. In fact, rhetoric such as this is invalidating the experience of those who must thereby insist that, contrary to the signs you're seeing, they're actually feeling down, else they must further internalize the negative feedback which nevertheless exists in plethora. The notion that anyone could claim precisely what reasonably should bring another stranger happiness or resolve their depression is pure hubris. The defining qualities of this situation are all internal, and the externalities used in your measurement are correllative and either irrellevant or after-the-fact. A "smell test" one might consider is of empathy: if your mind ran quickly through various things which caught its attention, yet couldn't follow through with focus until resolution, negative feedback surely just recurs and piles up - it is neither sufficiently affected nor undone by positive feedback. OP's hypothesis smells true to me, but I choose to sniff the roots rather than the flower when we're looking for a cause more than an effect.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#530

Post by bergenty »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #501
bergenty wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s part of the point. Whatever it is, it’s a chemical imbalance. Just need to find which one. In the case of dehydration it’s water.

I think the point is anything can be a chemical process because we are chemical beings. Drowning or having your leg cut off leads to a chemical imbalance, but chemistry isn't always the most productive lens to analyze the problem

Drowning or having your leg cut off are not chronic conditions. I think it makes a lot of sense to analyze chronic problems in the brain through the chemical lens.
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