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EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#431

Post by nemothekid »

bloppe wrote: post #305
nemothekid wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Somehow the decade of directed scams and proliferation of malware and spyware isn't a problem and it's the developers "right" to be able to turn…

To your first point: I find it telling that your main concern with reducing Apple's monopoly power is that it would elevate Facebook's monopoly power. How about we design regulations that mitigate against monopoly power in all its forms? Then there would be viable alternatives to Facebook and all of the sudden their business model based on hostile tracking becomes completely unsustainable because there's meaningful c…

>Then there would be viable alternatives to Facebook and all of the sudden their business model based on hostile tracking becomes completely unsustainable because there's meaningful competition that actually respects their users.

This assumes my problem is with Facebook and Facebook alone. My problem is with ad-tech and more generally all other developers. I know Apple exersts influence beyond their customers and I'm not sympathetic to developers who cry about Apple not letting them run $program.

What the web has shown is that given a free-for-all platform, users lose and any new technology is used to fingerprint people on the web. Apple has provided an option that, sure is a walled garden, but I can be reasonably confident isn't doing something I'm not interested in.

I'm not sure what "harmful effects" of green bubbles are but I'm sure envy isn't as bad as every ad tech company having an NSA style citizen database.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#432

Post by nemothekid »

fyzix wrote: post #427
nemothekid wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Somehow the decade of directed scams and proliferation of malware and spyware isn't a problem and it's the developers "right" to be able to turn…

Facebook isn't forcing Android users to install their apps from an alt store so that point is moot

Facebook doesn't need to; as far as I'm aware Android has done nothing as drastic as Apple's tracking opt-in. Android is already open enough for Facebook to do whatever they want.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#433

Post by sbuk »

carapace wrote: post #382
KerrAvon wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with all of this shit is that the EU is only measuring sentiment from developers, not end users. End users are happy with Safari. Developers are the only ones who care about any of the rest of this.

If the users prefer Safari they can keep using it, no?

“This website only works on Chrome.” will be the new "Best viewed in Interet Explorer"

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#434

Post by drampelt »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #394
Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

> Use existing hardware and software features without competitive prejudice. E.g. NFC What this will mean for me as an iPhone user: instead of using Apple Pay which is seamlessly integrated in my phone, watch and desktop OS, I will instead have to use my bank's terrible HTML-based 'app' to perform contactless payments, making it 100 times less convenient. This probably will make me switch back to using my bank card.…

I have an Android phone and have every single one of my credit and debit cards from 7 different banks in Google Pay. Don't need to use the bank app for any of them.

EDIT: to be clear, currently on Android any app can handle NFC payments, not just Google Pay. Banks could easily force people to user their apps, but that's not happening.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#435

Post by stale2002 »

judge2020 wrote: post #359
frostburg wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Users will just elect not to do that if they want to benefit from your curation.

The selling point for this theoretical device is that, even if someone steals your passcode, it can’t be hacked. This enabled evil maid (or customs processors, nation-state agencies, etc) attacks on the most vulnerable users looking to have defense-in-depth. To avoid this it seems you’d either be forced to sell it at an insane markup (to avoid having too many users) or means test people to make sure they don’t purcha…

I think there are easy to think of solutions to the problem, that let's everyone win.

The obvious solution, for your hypothetical, would be to give a setting to the user, that turns on "safe mode" and make this setting only changeable on factory reset.

So any user could choose, at startup, to have safe mode on or off, on their own device.

Problem solved.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#436

Post by izacus »

plandis wrote: post #251

One would think that if there is truly a Europe wide market for such an unlocked device a competitor should be able to challenge Apple and Google dominance. Europe could even subsidize it. But instead, it’s more engineering by bureaucrats. Why is Europe so afraid of competing in the open market?

Talking about "free market" when the gatekeeping megacorp selects winners in multiple downstream markets is ridiculous.

I thought it's common knowledge that consolidation and cartels cripple free markets to the point of not functioning and benefiting society anymore?

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#437

Post by colinmhayes »

buscoquadnary wrote: post #411
tirpen wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these rules apply only to companies above a certain size, both in number of users and revenue. Those get classified as "digital gatekeepers" and they are the companies that have to comply with extra requirements. So no, this will not affect startups and harm innovation, it will just force the monopolistic behemoths to play nice and cease actively harming innovation.

It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors. Further it seems more like a moat to keep anyone else from getting as big as these "digital gatekeepers" are as suddenly when you get to a certain size you have an enormous expense. If these companies really are that large that they have to get special laws for them i…

I don’t think the EU has the ability to break up American companies. I guess they could try to ban them from operating in the EU, but that would pretty much nuke diplomatic relations with the US so it’s hard for me to see it happening.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#438

Post by vopi »

Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

Where does it mention side loading? Still skimming the legal doc, but it just says basically they need to be fair and non-discriminatory about app-store access.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#439

Post by piaste »

foepys wrote: post #413
LeanderK wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much welcome this legislation (and I use an iPhone). How would you approach this otherwise? The EU probably can't break up Google or Apple (how would this even look like?) and the walled gardens are clearly a market failure, including apples fat margins. You mention details, but regulation can be well made and just continuing the status quo is also bad. All regulations open up questions but it's not the wild w…

Apple can be broken up in multiple ways. - smartphones - desktop/laptops - music and video streaming - App Store and payments with Apple Pay - chip design - physical stores All of those could stand on their own. Edit: I'm not saying that the EU can break them up but Apple is not a company with a single field where breaking it up is impossible. I misread the parent a bit.

How does the EU force an American company to break up? (Not a rhetorical question)

Perhaps they might pull a China and require them to open a 51% EU-owned subsidiary to do business here, which would then be subject to all sort of restrictions including company size.

As a EU citizen, I would absolutely love it. But I suspect that the EU is bound by many more and much more comprehensive free-trade treaties than China is, and such a draconian approach would require many of them to be renegotiated or exited outright.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#440

Post by izacus »

bun_at_work wrote: post #341
origin_path wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that Android already allows such things and there has been no malware apocalypse. In all the years Android existed I've never encountered someone with a malware filled phone. People stick with the default app store and are fine. Agree about the EU though.

The entire history of Android is filled with malware stories. Google has gotten better about moderating their PlayStore, but there have been plenty of flashlight apps or similarly dumb apps that are just rootkits, bitcoin miners, or more malicious forms of malware.

AppStore is also filled with malware apps (including explotative flashlight apps and apps that trick you into subscriptions).

Yours is a throughly debunked argument.

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