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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

491–500 of 625 posts

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#491

I have a theory which I can’t substantiate, just anecdotes and conversations I had throughout the years. But, I’m convinced a lot of depression/anxiety stems from thinking too much and that in turn is caused by an ever complex word with looser and looser guidelines or norms. I’m not making judgements weather this is necessarily good or bad but rather observing. In the past, even as recent as the 50s but certainly bef…

> by an ever complex word with looser and looser guidelines or norms

That reminds me of one of those weird little findings. People with depression appear to more accurately estimate their control (or lack of control) over a situation, than people who are not depressed. Perhaps non-depressed people are just delusionally optimistic about the chances of things going wrong. (If true "overthinking" is probably related in some way to this.)

> When participants were asked to press a button and rate the control they perceived they had over whether or not a light turned on, depressed individuals made more accurate ratings of control than non-depressed individuals.[5] Among participants asked to complete a task and rate their performance without any feedback, depressed individuals made more accurate self-ratings than non-depressed individuals.[6][7][8][9] For participants asked to complete a series of tasks, given feedback on their performance after each task, and who self-rated their overall performance after completing all the tasks, depressed individuals were again more likely to give an accurate self-rating than non-depressed individuals.[10][11][12][13][14][15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why you say 'SEVERE' so severely. It doesn't sound like you have any direct experience of this. I had to come off them and it wasn't a problem. My biggest fear, and it was huge, was that the depression would return. It didn't.

Because it's pretty damned severe with SNRIs. You probably only tried some SSRIs. Turns out not all medications are identical.

Yep, never taken SNRIs - for me it was straight prozac. Side effects while on it weren't pretty though.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#493

Yeah, but thats hardly news, we have known that for decades. Otherwise direct serotonin releasers would be the most useful ADs. But these mostly give people nausea and serotonin syndrome. ADs work mostly by being FIASMAs, reducing inflammation and oxidative stress, increasing neurogenesis and neuroplasticity, increasing the activity of other monoaminergic systems, and the serotonergic portion is mostly explained by d…

Yes, but people are still being told by their psychiatrists that depression is caused by low serotonin levels as if it were an objective fact. Seeing this happen made me lose a lot of trust in the medical profession. Is it like this for all illnesses or just mental ones?

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major depressive disorder isn't the same thing as feeling sad about your job.

Bad jobs can cause suicide

Suicide is usually due to distress than clinical depression. This is why suicide hotlines work at all.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend that's convinced that her ADHD 'causes depression' because her brain does not produce 'enough dopamine'. I'm noticing more and more among my peers a mythology around brain chemicals that's about as accurate as the four humors but with a scientific-sounding veneer. All brain function (and thus all bodily function, because the brain is the whole person /s) can be traced back to the presence or absence o…

I think ADHD causes depression because you get constant negative feedback from (many) teachers & bosses.

It's true, and I alluded to this more in depth in a comment in this chain.

Growing up in the semi-rural South East, USA, where kids didn't get diagnosed with ADHD. (Fun fact -- I had 5 boys who were my childhood friends that grew up with. We all lived within 3 miles of each other, and all of us have ADHD -- something in the water maybe?)

I didn't know I had ADHD until I was in a dark dark place in my early 20s after 4 years of college (only took me 6 years lol).

I swear I have some kind of CPTSD from growing up with it. I developed all kinds of healthy and unhealthy coping mechanisms and a lot of anger and negative self-talk that I struggle with still to this day.

I mean, I was chewed up and spit out by the public education system, little league sports, other children's parents, my peers, and even my own parents from time to time. Constantly, day in and day out, being punished, ridiculed, and humiliated for something I could not control. I didn't want to be that way, and I still don't want to be that way, but I am what I am.

I would not consider myself to be anything but average intelligence, maybe even below average, but if it weren't for sheer luck and a determination to prove everyone wrong, then I do not think I would have survived.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#496
"I think depression is really caused by X, and anti-depressants are really just a placebo"

It's tough to quantify the efficacy of AD's, especially given the differences in individual neurochemistry, but claiming they don't work at all, or that depression isn't even real, is plain ignorant.

Everyone should be forced to watch Dr. Sapolsky's lecture before commenting on depression: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#497

Yeah, but thats hardly news, we have known that for decades. Otherwise direct serotonin releasers would be the most useful ADs. But these mostly give people nausea and serotonin syndrome. ADs work mostly by being FIASMAs, reducing inflammation and oxidative stress, increasing neurogenesis and neuroplasticity, increasing the activity of other monoaminergic systems, and the serotonergic portion is mostly explained by d…

Yes, but people are still being told by their psychiatrists that depression is caused by low serotonin levels as if it were an objective fact. Seeing this happen made me lose a lot of trust in the medical profession. Is it like this for all illnesses or just mental ones?

I was told by a psychiatrist that I respect that one day in the future we may look back on psychiatry of today like we look at blood-letting and lobotomies of the past.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, well, that's an easy rhetorical maneuver but one that can be met with equally facile ripostes, such as "how do you determine that people weren't just as if not more depressed in the 18th Century when the concept was less familiar?" or "perhaps having the gulf between themselves and the wealthy rubbed in their faces every day is what causes the distress, since there can be little sense of exploitation if one is su…

Didn't people in the olden days also see the castles and mansions of the rich on a daily basis?

Daily I very much doubt because it’s not like most people were commuting to work. Would you sometimes see them, sure, but people also had a belief system that would have done more to justify the social order, and it would probably be limited to provincial elites for most.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#499
post #33

I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.

We have it way better than almost any period in history and are profoundly unhappy. Also, we always like to think we will be happy “once I have…X” and then we get X and say well actually what I need is Y. Most unhappiness is driven by vanity and desire (a bargain you make with yourself where you chose to be unhappy until you get something) to be better than our peers. Until you can be content with nothing you wont be…

This is an article about clinical depression, not 'unhappiness'. While distress can result in clinical depression, they aren't at all the same thing. One gets better if the stressor is removed, the other does not.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

recently procured an acupressure spiky foot ball that was originally designed to combat depression by stimulating the vagus through the foot. I don't consider myself depressed by any means, but after a few minutes of rolling my feet aggressively over the ball and targeting a few key areas, I generally feel much better and can actually sense that my body is less stressed. everyone should have one or 2 of them

This is very interesting - is that just a general acupressure spikey ball? I am looking for one on Amazon, if you had the link? Also, reading up on the vagus how is the vagus stimulated via the foot? Reading on wikipedia on the vagus nerve I cannot see how it is connected to the foot in any way? Thanks in advance

It's connected to the vagus nerve via the leader of the 1950's Chinese communist party:

https://slate.com/technology/2013/10/traditional-chinese-med...

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