Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 176 posts

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#71

Post by jltsiren »

pif wrote: post #18
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #8

Aren’t these just subsidized taxis? They don’t help with congestion, they don’t help with pollution, I don’t see how they ultimately bring down costs since you still need individual cars and drivers... Perhaps in some limited cases, multiple people going the same way at the same time can share a vehicle, but how often will that work out in practice? I basically never end up sharing an Uber/Lyft with anyone else despi…

> They don’t help with congestion, they don’t help with pollution, So what? The first and only point of a public transport system is, you know, transporting people. Limiting congestion and pollution comes very far in terms of priority, and only once the core mission is fulfilled.

The primary purpose of public transport (within an urban area) is reducing traffic. The vast majority of people can use private vehicles just fine, and if traffic is not an issue, the rest can use taxis. Subsidized ones if necessary.

Reducing traffic is the primary goal. When there is less traffic, the city can reserve less space for streets and parking. That leaves more space for the purposes people are in the city for. Also, areas with fewer cars tend to be more pleasant than areas with heavy traffic.

Congestion and pollution are secondary issues.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#72

Post by Symmetry »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #8

Aren’t these just subsidized taxis? They don’t help with congestion, they don’t help with pollution, I don’t see how they ultimately bring down costs since you still need individual cars and drivers... Perhaps in some limited cases, multiple people going the same way at the same time can share a vehicle, but how often will that work out in practice? I basically never end up sharing an Uber/Lyft with anyone else despi…

For a bus line with only a few people replacing the bus with a car is going to reduce pollution on net. Replacing a full bus with a number of full vans will be bad for the environment, of course, but on most routes and most of the time busses aren't full. Ideally we would use a mixture of busses and vans depending on the demand for a particular route.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#73

Post by nicwolff »

> These days, the service runs about 37,000 trips a week, Lentz said, or more than two and a half times the 26,000 rides the old bus system ran in a typical, pre-pandemic week.

Are "trips" different from "rides" in some way that makes this arithmetic correct?

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#75

Post by woodruffw »

Symmetry wrote: post #69
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know it's not by accident, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

Streetcars, combining the routing inflexibility of trains with the vulnerability to traffic of busses. We could have saved them if we'd banned cars from city centers and you can argue that if you want to but it wasn't GM that did them in.

"Vulnerability to traffic" can be alternately expressed as "right of way violated by individual cars." The history of the decline of streetcars in the US is the history of automotive companies convincing the public that cars take priority over all other forms of transportation, consequences for the commons be damned.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#76

Post by kevincox »

whatever1 wrote: post #37

Public transit that is not subway on rails suck big time. I have wasted thousands of hours waiting for the bus that either came early, or is late, under 100 degrees of sun and under snowstorms. Add to that the I have walked thousands of miles because the bus stops do not align with my destinations. Since I got a car and live in the suburbs, I pay much lower housing costs, I start exactly 20’ before my punch in time,…

The biggest problem with most bus systems is that they use the same roads as private traffic. This means that for any individual person taking the car is faster than taking the bus. Of course all of these people who live in car-dependent suburbs already have a car so the additional cost to drive is low and they will get there faster and arguably more comfortable (sure, you can't read a book but you have your own personal environment). The end result is that the roads are full, need constant expansion and no one takes the bus.

Subways on rail are often faster than driving so they tend to be incredibly popular and greatly reduce traffic on the road. But subways on rails are not the only way to ensure that public transit is fast.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#77

Post by wbsss4412 »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #39
bluGill wrote: post #27

Another bad idea that keeps coming back. Real experts have written about it. Start with https://humantransit.org/2019/08/what-is-microtransit-for.ht... and be prepared to read for a while to understand why this is not a good idea despite the hype.

It is the future, getting the large inefficient buses off the system is the goal. His thesis that the vehicles meander and no technology will fix that is refutable in that technology can identify opportunities to minimize inefficiencies. A good algorithm will create efficient routes for the flexible transit. Finally, the author is a public transit consultant. He is not going to be good for a reference when he is on o…

Flexibility and efficiency are often at odds.

Fixed route service is FAR more efficient than any sort of micro transit service can ever be, unless we are looking at areas with very low demand.

The most efficient algorithm is always going to be having people gather in one spot to be picked up and dropped off rather than driving all over to different points.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#78

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

Yessss!!! There is no best one-size-for-all solution for transportation, we need lots of different methods to select the best methods for the situation. Scooters, [e-]bikes, vans, trolleys, buses, subways, trains, funiculars. (And more that have yet to be invented; personally I hope for rentable e-assist pedi-cabs to take cargo like groceries home in cities without the need for a 2-ton+ vehicle)

I think this van service combined with an "Uber Pool" model enables highly efficient trips that can supplement mass-transit. Within the planning of bus routes, there are always routes that will take a lot longer or require transfers, but are rarely taken; vans that can "go anywhere" would fill those gaps, without the need for profit-making (and without the discrimination and exploitation of taxis).

From the article, here's why van supplementation can work: "For $1.6 million, we're providing well over twice as many trips and covering 100 percent of the city with a system that picks you up within 15 to 20 minutes of your request, versus a bus that was only running once an hour." It's more expensive [to the city] but it provides much greater mobility and time-saving for citizens.

When you're a single mom and groceries are an hour ride one-way, and the bus only comes once an hour, and you work late, just getting food is a nightmare that takes 3+ hours at the end of a long day. Because of that, she may have to spend $25-50 on taxis (many grocery stores aren't open late), which further reduces her already stretched income. Supplemental transportation methods can solve this problem and transform quality of life for disadvantaged people in society.

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#79

Post by xhkkffbf »

whatever1 wrote: post #37

Public transit that is not subway on rails suck big time. I have wasted thousands of hours waiting for the bus that either came early, or is late, under 100 degrees of sun and under snowstorms. Add to that the I have walked thousands of miles because the bus stops do not align with my destinations. Since I got a car and live in the suburbs, I pay much lower housing costs, I start exactly 20’ before my punch in time,…

Why is rail any different? If one train goes down on a subway line, all of the trains after it are pretty much stuck too. A few lines can sometimes route around pain, but that's kind of rare.

In general, public transportation is just pretty inconvenient. (Now, I like walking so it's a bonus for me, but I can see how it's not for everyone.)

Re: In microtransit, passengers order a shuttle van instead of having to take a bus

#80

Post by jxramos »

whatever1 wrote: post #37

Public transit that is not subway on rails suck big time. I have wasted thousands of hours waiting for the bus that either came early, or is late, under 100 degrees of sun and under snowstorms. Add to that the I have walked thousands of miles because the bus stops do not align with my destinations. Since I got a car and live in the suburbs, I pay much lower housing costs, I start exactly 20’ before my punch in time,…

I still remember when I as a full time public transit commuter well into my adulthood. When new friends who didn't own cars would begin spending significant time with me we'd have to naturally public transit around town. Many of these individuals never really spent significant time outside of a car or a building having to stand around waiting outdoors. This became obvious when the weather got rough in winter and it was revealed they didn't own a proper coat to spend time freezing outside. I've lent out many of my extra coats in these situations.
Post reply on HN