EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#221

Post by bloppe » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

vlozko wrote: post #202

bloppe wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is certainly a problem, I don't accept it as an argument for why we all have to be locked in the walled garden. Just add a system setting that controls the walls. Let people disable it if they want, and tell your mother-and-law to never ever disable it no matter what. If you're worried that they'll be tricked into disabling it, then they probably should not be in control of a bank account or anything else…

What happens when installing Facebook requires this setting to be disabled because it's only installable with their own App Store and rampant with privacy intrusions? > People already get scammed on iPhones all the time. I disagree with this assertion. It's certainly far less than those getting scammed on Mac/PC. > It's silly to think that anybody would be more vulnerable as a result of the DMA. There's a failure in…

There are so many other ways to deal with this danger that don't involve relinquishing everybody's freedom to a monopoly. You could just make the setting unchangeable except by an administrator account, then don't give your vulnerable relative the admin password. Boom, they're in the exact same position as they were before this regulation, but I don't have to deal with Apple's extortion if I don't want to. Win win!

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#222

Post by kevingadd » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:57 PM UTC

eqtn wrote: post #193

Will it possible for Apple/Others to create something like Apple EU which then will license iOS from Apple US paying license fees and stay below €75 billion market valuation?

Companies already use local subsidiaries in this way to dodge taxes and regulations. The EU isn't likely to overlook it this time.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#223

Post by hgazx » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

This is going to be bad. Regarding the iPhone:

It will open the door to apps asking me to install their own stores to access them. That will be inconvenient.

It will open the door to apps charging me through methods other than Apple’s subscriptions. That will make it harder for me to cancel.

It will open the door to malware on the phones of my less technologically capable relatives.

On the other hand I will be able to install pirated Spotify and YouTube much easily. I currently have to use AltStore, which is somewhat annoying.

I’m not even going to comment on interoperability between messengers. It’s simply absurd, no matter the way I look at it.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#224

Post by capableweb » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:58 PM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #217

Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

You say the summary is in the link, but the first few things you mention are not in the summary, or called out at all in the article. I don’t think this is the “open up your App Store mechanism” regulation, as I believe there are two in flight right now

True, the closest summary as what parent posted I found at https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/digital-services... under "The consequences for gatekeepers", a page which is linked from the submission article.

It includes the following section:

    Gatekeepers will not be able to: 
    
        rank their own products or services higher than those of others
        prevent developers from using third-party payment platforms for app sales  
        process users’ personal data for targeted advertising, unless consent is granted
        establish unfair conditions for business users
        pre-install certain software applications or prevent users from easily un-installing them
        restrict business users of platforms
    
    Gatekeepers will have to:
    
        offer more choices, such as the choice of certain software on a user’s operating system
        ensure that unsubscribing from core platform services is as easy as subscribing
        provide information on the number of users that visit their platforms to determine whether the platform can be identified as a gatekeeper
        give business users access to their marketing or advertising performance data on the platform
        inform the European Commission of their acquisitions and mergers
        ensure that the basic functionalities of instant messaging services are interoperable, i.e. enable users to exchange messages, send voice messages or files 
    
    Fair competition of digital services is key to ensure that companies and consumers can all benefit in the same way from digital opportunities. This will also generate more innovation and boost consumer protection.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#225

Post by Gareth321 » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #217

Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

You say the summary is in the link, but the first few things you mention are not in the summary, or called out at all in the article. I don’t think this is the “open up your App Store mechanism” regulation, as I believe there are two in flight right now

I read the legislation, included in the link (https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-17-2022-INI...). Page 129, for example, details the rules for app and app store installation:

>The gatekeeper shall allow and technically enable the installation and effective use of third-party software applications or software application stores using, or interoperating with, its operating system and allow those software applications or software application stores to be accessed by means other than the relevant core platform services of that gatekeeper. The gatekeeper shall, where applicable, not prevent the downloaded third-party software applications or software application stores from prompting end users to decide whether they want to set that downloaded software application or software application store as their default. The gatekeeper shall technically enable end users who decide to set that downloaded software application or software application store as their default to carry out that change easily.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#226

Post by refurb » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #149

M2Ys4U wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Possibly. The other possibility is it will make it impossible to buy an iPhone in Europe. I doubt Apple will be willing to forego sales in the world's third largest economy, tbh.

It's not about absolute value; it's about relative value. if not making the change costs them the whole market (about 25% of their revenue) and making the change adds 30% to engineering overhead or adds 30% costs due to secondary effects (such as market-share loss to Android because Apple's performance moat suffers), it might not be worth it. To be clear: I think this is the right kind of hardball for EU to play. The…

Exactly.

If 30% of your business wants a change that means a 40% drop to all your business the smart move is to drop the customer that is 30%.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#227

Post by varispeed » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #79

varispeed wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it mean Google will have to enable call recording APIs on Android? That would be sweet. Currently none of call recording apps work on my phone and this is a must have feature for me. When I take a call with my doctor I have to use my separate memo recorder, so that I can refer to the call in the future if I forget something. Let's not mention usefulness of this feature when you are placing orders over the phone…

> If I could record a call I had evidence in case of dispute. It might not be legal to do that, in all cases, and the evidence might not be valid.

This is not really a valid argument. If they were concerned about legality, we wouldn't have cameras on the phone and probably neither the call functionality.

That being said, call recording is legal in my country.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#228

Post by rpadovani » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

la64710 wrote: post #220

Gareth321 wrote: post #2

This is easily one of the most expansive Acts regarding computing devices passed in my lifetime. The summary is in the link. As an iPhone user, this will enable me to: * Install any software * Install any App Store and choose to make it default * Use third party payment providers and choose to make them default * Use any voice assistant and choose to make it default * User any browser and browser engine and choose to…

- require the most important software (e.g. web browsers) to be installed by default when installing an operating system How is chromebook going to exist without a chrome browser? Sometimes I wonder if the people making the laws have any knowledge of the technology landscape?

Why is a Chrome browser specifically required?

Let's have a popup that asks which browser you want to use. I am certain that Google is more than capable to create websites that work with any browser.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#229

Post by tlamponi » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #178

bloppe wrote: post #81

It blows my mind how many people have bought into Apple's position on this. No, Apple restricting your freedom does not afford you greater security. You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. If you're not confident in your ability to tell shady from legit, just stick to the App Store. Don't demand that Apple treat the rest of us like children just because that's how you would like to be treated.

> You, as an adult, can choose not to install shady software. For some reason every Linux user assumes everyone is as smart as they are and anyone who doesn't take the time to learn whatever esoteric config file to manage their DE is a child that can't tell left from right. Somehow the decade of directed scams and proliferation of malware and spyware isn't a problem and it's the developers "right" to be able to turn…

1. Who talked about Linux?

2. Who said spam isn't a problem or that this act allows or even enforce to circumvent the strong privacy rules that the EU (not Apple) actually guarantees for their biggest single market in the world?

News flash: you can combat spam and scams while keeping open and exchangeable basic infrastructure, without any walled garden. Otherwise, following your logic Apple would need to ban access to protocols like IP instantly, as those can be used to transport spam and exchange openly information.

People rather argue that the safety excuse is BS and people do not require being a Linux expert to detect spam, that they can also get over the landline or in person knocking on the door, for that one needs common sense and some not completely bad education.

Re: EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, approved

#230

Post by cloogshicer » Wed, Jul 20, 2022, 3:00 PM UTC

hgazx wrote: post #223

This is going to be bad. Regarding the iPhone: It will open the door to apps asking me to install their own stores to access them. That will be inconvenient. It will open the door to apps charging me through methods other than Apple’s subscriptions. That will make it harder for me to cancel. It will open the door to malware on the phones of my less technologically capable relatives. On the other hand I will be able t…

How is interop between messengers a bad thing? Wouldn't it be amazing if you wouldn't have to switch between 100 messengers all the time?