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Being on call sucks

bobbiechen.com

41–50 of 282 posts

Re: Being on call sucks

#41
post #6

On-call is just fine as long as: 1. There is a rotation. 2. There are few pages, preferably the median should be 0 per week. 3. Spurious / non-actionable alerts get fixed right away (with very high priority) 4. You're not up more than 1 week per 1-1.5 month. 5. You subtract middle of the night pages from your next working day, with bad nights resulting in a day off. Being on-call doesn't mean working overtime. As wit…

On-call means you have to plan your free time around being available to work. That's never going to be "just fine" for some of us, no matter how it's structured.

Re: Being on call sucks

#42
A personal horror story: I have an on-call shift that is 24/7 for one week, only 3 other people are on the shift. Alerts are frequent, noisy, and happen almost every night so you are practically guaranteed to never sleep fully that week, and the sheer breadth of services + teams we’ve accumulated and lack of any clear specificity in alerts means that I’m almost always at least somewhat confused as to if something is actually broken and, if so, how I actually fix it, even after 3 years (two of which when I lived alone during the pandemic). This was my first job out of college too, I was fully convinced that if I fucked up even once or called the wrong person I would be fired and all of the effort I put into getting this career would be meaningless.

I didn’t even get any prep or mentorship, they just suddenly put me on-call during a major product launch. No extra pay or time off btw, just gotta continue work if you were up all night trying to fix some thing with vague priority & vague symptoms (too much latency on random offline service I’ve never heard of that turns out to be a dev experiment, latency being caused by a laggy database that you find out by finding some random message in splunk and regexing it out and into a graph).

I’m definitely a changed person after it, I don’t really… react as much anymore and flinch every time I hear a default iPhone text notification or ringtone. I don’t know how to fix it either—I don’t know if our team has enough people to spread the load out and I can’t think of any better way to keep track of failures in this labyrinth of services, and onboarding people to the point where they can actually take an additional shift is usually 8-12 months. Even experienced people still get ambushed by new services with zero documentation.

Pros though: I don’t really experience much stress or uncertainty anymore in hard situations, and I seem to be much better at problem solving! I’ve also managed to keep my prestigious job with life-changing pay, which feels much more personally fulfilling than coasting at Google (even if it’s for the wrong reasons).

Re: Being on call sucks

#43
I worked at a place in the 2000's where our main application leaked like a sieve due to not releasing memory from a C++ framework, and two people had to take turns every other night restarting the app (actually it was chopped up into 20 different apps that had to be started in order by hand) every two hours or so. I can't imagine they got much sleep on their night.

Re: Being on call sucks

#44
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finnish collective agreement, which covers IT workers, spells this out explicitly: * For every hour you're available for on-call you get your regular hourly rate. * For every incident, which involves you working, you receive twice your hourly salary for the duration. So companies based her tend to have that as standard, though I'm sure some companies would pay more to stand out.

Finally, somewhere that I fully agree with. Being on-call while you do not get called upon is 24 / 7 work because you have to live your entire life around being available. Like the blog post mentions, grocery shopping has implications because if you happen to have an on-call event while shopping it means leaving your cart to run to your car to address the situation because you can't leave your house without your work…

[deleted]

Re: Being on call sucks

#45
post #39
post #26

After years of iteration, here’s what our team does. The team is remote and distributed across multiple time zones ranging from West Coast US to Western Europe. This gets us as close to round the world coverage as we can have. There are two people on call for each shift, each shift lasts a week. It will typically (but not always) be one person from US and one person from UK/EU. This helps reduce the single personal c…

How does it work for you to be on-call 24/7 for escalation? I get that that ends up happening for many committed founders/operators/managers, but I struggle how that can be a real strategy. Are you never off-grid for a bit, or drunk in a bar, or just on a real no-work vacation? There seem to be situations where being on call just isn’t feasible.

I was effectively oncall 24/7 at my job at times in 2020.

I barely noticed the pandemic. I never strayed far from my computer. Also, yes, I tried not to drink much.

I certainly learned what my limits are. People think I am a pretty good engineer (not amazing) but what I am known for is being able to keep that level of performance up for a long time.

For my part, despite my reputation, I tried to quit a few times. Not the job, the company entirely. I have never cried at work, but came close once or twice after being up for days and unwinding from a big escalation.

Re: Being on call sucks

#46
post #39
post #26

After years of iteration, here’s what our team does. The team is remote and distributed across multiple time zones ranging from West Coast US to Western Europe. This gets us as close to round the world coverage as we can have. There are two people on call for each shift, each shift lasts a week. It will typically (but not always) be one person from US and one person from UK/EU. This helps reduce the single personal c…

How does it work for you to be on-call 24/7 for escalation? I get that that ends up happening for many committed founders/operators/managers, but I struggle how that can be a real strategy. Are you never off-grid for a bit, or drunk in a bar, or just on a real no-work vacation? There seem to be situations where being on call just isn’t feasible.

I assume it means they are paged via escalation if the primary fails to ack which should be rare, not paged every incident.

Re: Being on call sucks

#47
post #40

> Being On-Call Sucks Which is why I won't do it. Either hire people specifically to do it, or provide sufficient incentives so that people volunteer. Being a good "first responder" is a skill and not everyone has it or wants it.

Yeah I think most of engineering just has never heard of a night crew... And it works out to the benefit of companies, unsurprisingly.

If you want people to work around the clock, hire enough people to work around the clock. Maybe this means engineer salaries get repriced, maybe it means more and more companies figure out they don't necessarily need on-call.

All that said, the status quo probably won't change, there are more than enough engineers who either don't know better or do consider it priced in to their salaries.

Re: Being on call sucks

#48

I worked at a place in the 2000's where our main application leaked like a sieve due to not releasing memory from a C++ framework, and two people had to take turns every other night restarting the app (actually it was chopped up into 20 different apps that had to be started in order by hand) every two hours or so. I can't imagine they got much sleep on their night.

That seems like a prime candidate for scripting.

Re: Being on call sucks

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company I used to work for asked me to do on-call, it wasn't in my contract, I declined, that was that. I don't understand what "force" means in this context - the conversation went something like "I have commitments outside of work" and that was that. I mean, there was a back and forth, but yeah, at the end of the day I took the job knowing I'd be available for the hours they wanted when I took the job.

Forced means, they didn't announce it as you could not do it. It's was a "be on-call" or you are out. In a call I was explicitly told "every company does it like this, if that's not ok you might not be a right fit for this company".

>In a call I was explicitly told "every company does it like this, if that's not ok you might not be a right fit for this company".

In situations like this it's helpful to have a no-management backchannel team chat group set up so you can use it synchronize a series of "nope, not doing that".

Re: Being on call sucks

#50
post #46
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it work for you to be on-call 24/7 for escalation? I get that that ends up happening for many committed founders/operators/managers, but I struggle how that can be a real strategy. Are you never off-grid for a bit, or drunk in a bar, or just on a real no-work vacation? There seem to be situations where being on call just isn’t feasible.

I assume it means they are paged via escalation if the primary fails to ack which should be rare, not paged every incident.

I’m paged if the two people on call both fail to ack, which is extraordinarily rare.

But what it’s there for is if the team is experiencing something that is new/novel (where I can provide some targeted guidance) or the situation is spiraling and will get worse before it gets better (where I can provide air cover).

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