Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5 • Hacker News Board

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#111

Post by bphogan » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 4:42 PM UTC

I seriously wonder what this means for Flash on the desktop.

The responsive design movement keeps throwing these Morgan Stanley and other reports out there that predict that by 2015, people will be using mobile devices more than desktop devices. What incentive does Adobe have to continue develppig Flash for the browser?

Their statement eludes to nearly ubiquitous support for HTML5 on mobile devices. When IE10 comes out, will that level out the desktop market?

I always hear Flash developers saying that Flash does so many things better than HTML5. But if nobody's able to view the content because nobody wants to develop a Flash player for the target platforms, what does it matter?

I'm not saying I think Flash on the desktop is dead, but I could certainly see Adobe moving that direction. They're turning Flash into a platform like Titanium or PhoneGap, where it generates mobile apps, mobile web apps, or desktop apps. They're already doing that now. If that works, and I suspect it will work quite nicely, then I'd see even less incentive for them to support building "applets".

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#112

Post by tambourine_man » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 4:45 PM UTC

kamcknig wrote: post #110

ender7 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, the development environment matters quite a bit. - I will miss being able to declare classes using a sane syntax (Coffeescript helps in this regard) - I will miss the optional type annotations, which caught many a bug for me (you can use JSDoc annotations + closure compiler, but only if you like placing a verbose comment in front of every single variable declaration ) - I will miss having an IDE that can actua…

By the time a standard comes along anyway, we'll already be on HTML8 without a standard for it. HTML will never have a standard, and it will never be at a point where all browser implement all the same features.

There will be no HTML6, etc. Just HTML

HTML is the new HTML5

http://blog.whatwg.org/html-is-the-new-html5

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#113

Post by andrewvc » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 4:53 PM UTC

ender7 wrote: post #106

bad_user wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're complaining about the development environment, which is considered to be better than JS/HTML5 by many people. However, the Flash runtime is the reason people complain about Flash. It is slow, it leaks memory, it crashes like crazy and has been a second-class citizen on every platform other than Windows since forever. JS/HTML5 on the other hand is a mess in terms of development tools. But it is getting more and…

Sadly, the development environment matters quite a bit. - I will miss being able to declare classes using a sane syntax (Coffeescript helps in this regard) - I will miss the optional type annotations, which caught many a bug for me (you can use JSDoc annotations + closure compiler, but only if you like placing a verbose comment in front of every single variable declaration ) - I will miss having an IDE that can actua…

Actually, IntelliJ's tools do pretty good autocompletion for javascript. Not perfect, but much better than you'd expect.

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#114

Post by bad_user » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 4:59 PM UTC

ender7 wrote: post #106

bad_user wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're complaining about the development environment, which is considered to be better than JS/HTML5 by many people. However, the Flash runtime is the reason people complain about Flash. It is slow, it leaks memory, it crashes like crazy and has been a second-class citizen on every platform other than Windows since forever. JS/HTML5 on the other hand is a mess in terms of development tools. But it is getting more and…

Sadly, the development environment matters quite a bit. - I will miss being able to declare classes using a sane syntax (Coffeescript helps in this regard) - I will miss the optional type annotations, which caught many a bug for me (you can use JSDoc annotations + closure compiler, but only if you like placing a verbose comment in front of every single variable declaration ) - I will miss having an IDE that can actua…

     don't use gradients, since they kill performance. 
     Oh, and don't use opacity either, since that also 
     kills performance. Seriously?

The problem with the Flash player is that by design it assumes all applications have such needs, like opacity, gradients and animations, when this is not the case. Even with the drawbacks you mention, an interface built with jQTouch for example is pretty snappy on the iPhone. See the demo: http://jqtouch.com/

Android in particular is indeed having problems and I wasn't at all pleased with the results I got from jQuery Mobile. On the other hand Android has this problem with the UI in general, as hardware-accelerated graphics has been its weak point.

But you're comparing here the performance of browsers on mobile phones with the performance of Flash on the desktop. Adobe has yet to come up with a decent alternative for mobiles. I have Flash on my Android browser and I'm really not impressed. In fact, I deactivated it.

     Things that Flash used to laugh at will bring Chrome to its knees.

That goes both ways too ... try loading 5000 thumbnails in a Flash UI and compare it with Chrome. I do that whenever I organize my Flickr account.

Also in Chrome special effects may not be so snappy, but animations and games are doable. And they only added accelerated graphics support recently (I'm not even sure if it's enabled on my computer). Example: http://chrome.angrybirds.com/

Angry Birds is indeed not representative of what normal people will do with HTML/JS, as Rovio engineers are pretty talented. But I know dozens of games created in Flash that are less impressive and more sluggish than this Angry Birds version ... the truth is, good developers will make snappy and cool things using any technology. Bad developers won't.

And this may be an anecdote, but I never, ever used a Flash interface that I liked using. I even hate it whenever I'm viewing a YouTube video because it blocks my browser's normal shortcuts.

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#115

Post by ntoshev » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 5:02 PM UTC

idspispopd wrote: post #72

thought_alarm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure no one understands the technical challenges better than Adobe's engineers. The problem is that the company never admitted these challenges to their developers and customers (until now). Instead, they continually explained the problem as merely a political fight with Apple. Your website is no good on mobile? Don't blame us, blame Apple's lust for control. At worst, they flat out lied to their developers and c…

Amanita Design, creators of the indy award winning flash-based game "Machinarium", recently released this title to iPad. Machinarium is a basic point and click puzzle adventure. If written in native code this would have no issue running on even the first iPhone (of which there are plenty of similarly detailed games.) However due to using the Adobe iOS tools(air etc.) The performance is dismal on iPad 2. iPad 1 owners…

I'm not sure Machinarium problems stem from the Adobe toolchain. The developer says it's because they hit RAM limit with iPad 1 and load resources statically:

"The memory limitations of iPad 1 (which are somewhere around 115 MB RAM per app) are just quite challenging. You have to have it running around 80-90 to keep it stable and the app has tons of timeline animations, the sources are 1 GB, all compiled into one single SWF file + some assets. The app was originally made for PC and upgraded for tablet devices. When you start creating tablet apps from scratch it's a whole different story. The game is now made with 'no compromises' compared to the desktop version and that keeps it unique."

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/09/12/daily-ipad-app-machinarium/

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#116

Post by kinofcain » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 5:03 PM UTC

dave_sullivan wrote: post #107

kinofcain wrote: post #105

This is the end of flash. Mobile is the future of computing and if Adobe is giving up on flash for the mobile web, then they're giving up on flash for the entire web. The statement that they're shifting focus to air apps is to save face. The only reason people want to build AIR apps is because they already know flash from working with it on the web. And you know what? That's awesome. What the interactive web needs, f…

I think you're talking about 2 different things when you say "the end of flash". If you mean the end of the flash runtime for mobile browsers, then that's accurate. If you mean the end of flash as a dev platform (that is as3, flex, etc.), I didn't get that at all from the article. As it stands, I can write one app that will work on any desktop browser as well as across a growing range of mobile devices, including iOS…

True, I'm talking about two different things. Three, really: mobile flash, desktop browser flash, and the app-packaged flash solutions like AIR.

I don't think we can really split mobile web flash from desktop web flash, so I think that Adobe is fully aware that browser flash is dead, and I can't see them putting any real resources into the desktop version.

Browser flash has, since it was omitted from iOS, limped along under the promise that it was coming to mobile devices "any day now". And every crappy implementation was met with "well you should see it on the next version of [android os|android phone|blackberry]".

But that promise is gone, and browser flash is now a dead product with a rapidly shortening shelf life.

The reason I think the death of browser flash is also going to kill AIR (Packaged Flash), is because it eliminates the easy entry point that the AIR platforms had. AIR was barely successful only because it took advantage of a huge, huge ecosystem of people writing browser flash.

But that ecosystem has hit it's high water mark and is now officially receding: New developers aren't going to go out of their way to learn browser flash, and people aren't going to pick packaged flash over other tools if they don't already have a vested interest in the language and the runtime.

It's ok, but it's just not that great, and at the end of the day true "write once, run anywhere" isn't that important (and it's a bit of a myth), and if it is for you, then write a web app.

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#117

Post by luriel » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 5:47 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #56

cowpewter wrote: post #16

This makes me a little sad. For all that people complain about Flash, and any problems the Flash Player runtime has, it's really a fun environment to code for. I like AS3, I like the Flash API, and I greatly enjoyed writing Flex back when that was most of my job. I don't have nearly as much fun writing HTML/JS as I did writing AS3. I liked the (optional) strict typing. I liked writing for a single target and knowing…

You're complaining about the development environment, which is considered to be better than JS/HTML5 by many people. However, the Flash runtime is the reason people complain about Flash. It is slow, it leaks memory, it crashes like crazy and has been a second-class citizen on every platform other than Windows since forever. JS/HTML5 on the other hand is a mess in terms of development tools. But it is getting more and…

Flash has had chronic performance and reliability issues even on Windows.

And you forgot to mention one of the main issues with Flash: security (or the lack of thereof), it has had so many holes it is starting to make Active X look good (hyperbole, I know, but not by much).

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#118

Post by beej71 » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 5:53 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #59

beej71 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the barriers to entry for others to then go the same way is so much lower than in Adobe's previous environment. Can you not just target Flash Player? Seems like the barrier to entry is going to be the same as Adobe's in either case, except that with Flash, Adobe must also maintain Flash Player.

Flash is not open. It's also a moving target for everyone but Adobe.

I agree, but on the HTML5 side, we have not one but several moving targets, and IE is hardly open.

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#119

Post by cpeterso » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 6:00 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #75

9999 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they put some effort into mobile Flash (specifically flash lite) development when they could justify the cost with the revenue they were receiving from handset manufacturers that licensed it. Then the iPhone came out without Flash. Then Steve Jobs slammed Flash (approximately half of which was true) and told Adobe to go back to making tools to help people make shit. And Adobe actually listened to jobs. I feel li…

Having seen the Flash Lite source code back in the days before iPhone, I'd say there wasn't a lot of effort there at all. The code was pretty bad.

Flash Lite was a hack-n-slashed fork off the venerable (and briefly open-source!) Flash Player 4. The portability and modularization of the Flash code has improved since 1999.

Re: Adobe ceases development on mobile browser Flash, refocuses efforts on HTML5

#120

Post by luriel » Wed, Nov 09, 2011, 6:01 PM UTC

Samuel_Michon wrote: post #2

If true, I believe it would be healthy for the mobile web. There are still developers out there who believe that Adobe will come up with a decent mobile Flash experience, even though it has failed to deliver on those promises for the better part of a decade. If Adobe just comes out says "Not gonna happen", we can all move on and invest our time and energy in technologies that actually have a future.

Many developers already moved on, no need to wait for Adobe's permission to do so.