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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#161

Post by eyelidlessness »

willcipriano wrote: post #146
eyelidlessness wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't take it personal Oh I take it personally. I’m alive today because I sought diagnosis and treatment. I very nearly wasn’t alive from the consequences of being undiagnosed and untreated. I very probably would be dead today if I had taken this “just person on the internet” more seriously than I already had. I’m more than tired of people offering their ignorant opinions about stuff they don’t understand.

On the other hand, the state threw a ADD diagnosis on me because I was bored in school, pumped me full of a methamphetamine analog and put me into classes with profoundly disabled people ruining my social life from a early age. I'd stare at the wall in my bedroom for hours due to the drugs, eventually my parents stopped giving them to me when I was at home, but that lead my dad to try them, and eventually get addicte…

In all seriousness, I’m sorry you went through this. I also grew up with a parent and family with addiction. I’m in no place to assess anything about your life, but what you describe is consistent with the diagnosis. And unfortunately your dad taking your meds and becoming an addict is consistent too.

ADHD is frequently hereditary, and substance abuse and addiction are common for people with undiagnosed ADHD.

Your own story of dropping out and teaching yourself isn’t just familiar to me, it’s similar to both my brothers’ stories as well.

I’m sorry you experienced this the way you did. I wish you had better medical care, and better parental guidance. I hope the life that you’ve made for yourself is joyful and prosperous, and I hope if it’s ever not you’ll find your way to that however it makes sense.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#162

Post by tptacek »

carabiner wrote: post #43
walrus01 wrote: post #19

I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.

IOW: Are you ready for me to diagnose your totally normal reaction to our shitty society as mental illness so I can get you addicted to mind altering drugs for the rest of your life? https://imgur.com/Jb1mJyx Or as the Unabomber said, "Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening…

It's a strange mode of persuasion, making arguments about how we should frame psychological dysfunction that quote a man who pooped into a hole in the corner of a shack while in hiding after trying to down a passenger jet.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#163

Post by JamesBarney »

techdragon wrote: post #140
dymk wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible the psychiatrist is using "low serotonin" as a simple shorthand meant for the layperson

Or like many practicing medical professionals in many specialties where the patient demand is high enough to fill their week ... they don't have time to keep abreast of current research in their field and since they aren't required to, they just don't. There is usually some required ongoing professional development but that is in no way designed to ensure they keep up with current research consensus, more that they d…

This psychiatrist is either an lazy, an idiot or using shorthand.

Anyone who spent even in a couple hours reading about depression (one of the most common ailments) in the last decade knows that low serotonin is not the cause of depression.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#164

Post by emodendroket »

tptacek wrote: post #148
smolder wrote: post #122

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the prominence of depression is largely caused by a broken interface with the world at large. The traps created by modern society wherein you struggle for other people's benefit are better designed than ever before. What our social machine procedurally treats as progress is advances in subjugation. Depression may often be an artifact of "efficiency" with respect to extracting v…

You're right: you've gone way out on a limb.

I've heard plenty of people involved in mental health care themselves lament the fact that they're often just trying to happy-talk people who genuinely have harrowing lives. I don't think the notion is absurd.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#165

Post by jb1991 »

asdff wrote: post #85
jb1991 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about psilocybin? One recent article posted here suggested something like one dose every six months had measurable impact on depression.

I support psychadelic legalization but at the same time I wonder how much of the antidepressive effect of psychadelics is just from giving space for thought in your day to day life. For exmaple, the modern human wakes up, starts scrolling instagram, goes to work, goes home, continues scrolling instagram, then sleeps. There is no period of reflection or introspective thought, since every mundane activity where you cou…

I agree with your general point, but psilocybin does a heck of a lot more than give you space to think. It temporarily (or, as studies suggest, perhaps more long-term) also changes quite a bit about how you think.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#166

Post by pcrh »

foolfoolz wrote: post #5

imagine working in a field where nothing is probably true

Indeed. The whole profession of psychiatry suffers from poor application of scientific research, to the extent that the National Institute of Mental Health once banned reference to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (known as DSM-5).

https://www.science.org/content/article/nimh-wont-follow-psy...

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#167

Post by emodendroket »

chx wrote: post #57

There's a significant population of science denying cranks and so those who want to raise legit concerns about the quality and alas, often motivation of medical studies are easily grouped with those. But: 1. There's no such thing as good / bad cholesterol. This is complete baloney and Pfizer lost a staggering amount of money when a drug raising good cholesterol got as far as human trials -- and failed them. There is…

> 2. The diagnosis and treatment of ADHD in adults but most especially in children is extremely suspect. Last year there was a study pretty much confirming it is overdiagnosed in children. But even worse, whether ADHD is even a thing or multiple conditions wrongly bundled under a single name is basically an open question. We basically put labels on children with "problematic behaviors" like "autistic spectrum disorder" and "ADHD" and then eventually find that 30-80% of ASD children are meeting criteria for ADHD. First of all what sort of study is 30-80%? But if the higher end is true, the question strongly arises: are these even two things?

You know, just the other day I read about some brain scan study which suggested high-functioning autism looked, in brain scans, more like ADHD than like profound autism. But I think to some extent this sort of problem is inevitable if you're trying to dream up a taxonomy for conditions entirely from how they present themselves with a limited understanding of their biological basis.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#168

Post by JamesBarney »

smolder wrote: post #122

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the prominence of depression is largely caused by a broken interface with the world at large. The traps created by modern society wherein you struggle for other people's benefit are better designed than ever before. What our social machine procedurally treats as progress is advances in subjugation. Depression may often be an artifact of "efficiency" with respect to extracting v…

You must be reading very different history books than the ones I've read.

The idea that we're somehow way more exploited than the people who came before us does not seem compatible with any history book I've ever read.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#169

Post by Elof »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #136
photochemsyn wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OP is just saying that 'ADHD' is not that valid of a diagnosis, in terms of any kind of underlying 'pathology'. The fact that many people appear to benefit from the use of 'medication' (i.e. amphetamines and derivatives, from Adderall to Desoxyn(methamphetamine) to Ritalin), is mostly unrelated to any 'diagnosis'. Personally I think all drugs should be legal and people should be able to take whatever they thi…

> I think OP is just saying that 'ADHD' is not that valid of a diagnosis I understand this in the comment’s expression too, and it’s emphatically wrong. > benefit from the use of 'medication' (i.e. amphetamines and derivatives, from Adderall to Desoxyn(methamphetamine) to Ritalin), is mostly unrelated to any 'diagnosis'. You’re incorrect. > Personally I think all drugs should be legal and people should be able to tak…

I think the point is that actual diagonoses are often wrong and potentially harmful, which I agree with. I share a bit of your story, getting diagonised with ADHD benefited me greatly and led me down a path that likely saved my life. At the same time, while many people are helped by the medical system many others aren't and psych drugs are an area where there is a lot of finger waving in how drugs are perscribed.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#170

Post by tptacek »

emodendroket wrote: post #164
tptacek wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right: you've gone way out on a limb.

I've heard plenty of people involved in mental health care themselves lament the fact that they're often just trying to happy-talk people who genuinely have harrowing lives. I don't think the notion is absurd.

All sorts of non-absurd-seeming notions turn out to be wrong, which is why people train for many years to conduct medical research.
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