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Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

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Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#171

Post by feet »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #144
feet wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even using conda to manage reqs is an absolute nightmare. Did a subreq get updated? Did the author of the library pin that subreq? No? Have fun hunting down which library needs to be downgraded manually

I used a couple of tricks to solve this. First, make cond env export a build step and environment.yml an artifact so you've got a nice summary of what got installed. Second, nightly builds so you aren't surprised by random package upgrade errors the next time you commit code to your project.

My bad experiences are usually around setting up projects created by others, sadly

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#172

Post by takeda »

sph wrote: post #153
takeda wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Python is 31 year old (it's even older than Java) it was created around the same time as world wide web. So it started when no one even knew they would need dependency management and evolved over time from people posting packages on their home pages, to a central website to what we now call PyPI. Similarly the tooling and way of packaging the code evolved. What you described are multiple tools that…

Being 31 years old doesn't preclude having a decent, official and reproducible way of installing packages in 2022. That's just a bad excuse to justify subpar package managers and terrible governance around this problem. Package management is pretty much a solved problem, no matter how old is your language. It smells to an outsider like me like a lot of bike-shedding and not enough pragmatism is going on in Python lan…

But Python has a decent and a reproducible way of installing packages. The problem python has is that things evolved over time, so you can find on the net plenty of outdated information. There is also a lot of blogs and articles with bad practices, most written by people that got something working.

I think also a lot of issues with packaging is ironically because of PyPA that supposed to work on a standard, but in reality instead of embracing and promoting something that works they just pushes half-assed solutions because author is one of the members. Kind of like they were pushing failed Pipenv "for humans". Seems like Poetry is generally popular and devs are happy with it, so of course PyPA started pushing their own Hatch project, because python packaging was finally getting too straight forward.

I think Python would benefit as a whole if PyPA was just dissolved.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#173

Post by obviouslynotme »

wizofaus wrote: post #137
obviouslynotme wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. C# is usually used by Microsoft shops, and half the reason to use C# is so you can use Visual Studio.

That implies that if a better alternative to VS came along, C# developers wouldn't choose it! I certainly would, for one, and I'm a long-term VS user, well aware of its failings (but also yet to come across another IDE that's noticeably superior. And coding with a text editor and command line compiler is something I spent 10+ years doing when it was all that was available, and nothing I have any great hankering to go…

The only IDE better than Visual Studio is probably one of the Smalltalk IDEs, but the languages are too niche these days. It's a shame none of the large companies wants to back them.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#174

Post by tmh88j »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #155
sph wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being 31 years old doesn't preclude having a decent, official and reproducible way of installing packages in 2022. That's just a bad excuse to justify subpar package managers and terrible governance around this problem. Package management is pretty much a solved problem, no matter how old is your language. It smells to an outsider like me like a lot of bike-shedding and not enough pragmatism is going on in Python lan…

No but there’s a walrus operator! Not sure anyone was asking for that, unlike a fix for packaging issues.

I really like the walrus operator. It's helped me to create more straightforward if/elif blocks and loops. Effective python has some pretty good examples. https://effectivepython.com/2020/02/02/prevent-repetition-wi...

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#175

Post by jimsmart »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #107

On the subject: What is a good, idiomatic, Go project to study? Something big enough to be a good example of code organization, yet small enough not to become a new hobby.

Go's stdlib is often given as an example for this, and I personally found it to be useful learning material. I wouldn't advise trying to study it all (it's quite big): just study some pieces of it.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#176

Post by takeda »

tmh88j wrote: post #166
takeda wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean pip freeze outputs packages and their versions in machine readable form that can be read and installed by pip install -r requirements.txt

This whole chain started with someone pointing out the author doesn't seem to realize you can pin versions[1]. I'm just confused how people seemed to end up questioning what pip freeze does. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32141573#32142190

Perhaps I was just proving author's point.

I tried to say that from mentioned tools only poetry can be called as a dependency management.

The other tools are used for different purposes, but perhaps could be used as a piece of package management in some way. The mentioned docker and vendoring is irrelevant to Python and it even applies to Go.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#177

Post by ramchip »

mypalmike wrote: post #149
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a Python dev, I never saw that happen in ten years or so of work. Pip freeze and virtualenv just worked for me. I will say, though, that this only accounts for times where you’re not upgrading dependencies. Where I’ve always run into issues in Python was when I decided to upgrade a dependency and eventually trigger some impossible mess.

Upgrading dependencies is fraught in all languages.

It's really not. I've had a much, much worse experience with Python than Elixir / Go / Node for various reasons: lots of different tools rather than one blessed solution, people pinning specific versions in requirements (2.1.2) rather than ranges (~> 2.1), dependency resolution never finishing, pip-tools being broken 4 times by new pip releases throughout a project (I kept track)...

In Elixir I can do `mix hex.outdated` in any project, no matter who wrote it, and it'll tell me very quickly what's safe to update and link to a diff of all the code changes. It's night and day.

Thankfully, it's getting gradually better with poetry, but it's still quite clunky compared to what you get elsewhere. I noticed lately for instance that the silent flag is broken, and there's apparently no way to prevent it from spamming 10k lines of progress bars in the CI logs. There's an issue on Github, lost in a sea of 916 other open issues...

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#178

Post by tomrod »

fnord123 wrote: post #29
im3w1l wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pip freeze will pin explicit as well as transitive dependencies

It's a hassle to do this correctly and upgrade the dependencies. Use poetry.

Someone else already responded. It's a one-line command.

I never could get poetry to work right; it's configs are sort of messy. pip freeze > requirements is built in. The only thing it doesn't pin is the python version itself.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#179

Post by Spivak »

smeagull wrote: post #151
okasaki wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I feel people are using Python very differently than me. I just use pip freeze and virtualenv (these are Python basics, not some exotic tools) and I feel it works great. Granted, you don't get a nice executable, but it's still miles ahead of C++ (people literally put their code into header files so you don't have to link to a library), and even modern languages like rust (stuff is always broken, or I have s…

If I did that I'd have no harddrive space left due to how large python dependencies are.

Wat? What dependencies? I have right now 100 separate Python projects which each have their own venv, their own isolated dependencies, and their own isolated copy of Python itself and my code dir doesn’t even crack top 10 hard drive space.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#180

Post by Spivak »

jeremydw wrote: post #168
chpmrc wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Poetry is a 3rd party package manager, I'm sure it's great but it's not widely used (yet) - Pip freeze just pins all dependencies at once to requirements.txt - I don't know what "vendoring in dependency code" means - I've never used pipreqs in my life (and 80% of my work has been in Python) - Virtualenvs are just a convenient way to keep project runtimes separated And for 90% of Python projects in existence the fol…

Sounds like someone has never been asked to clone and run software targeting Python 3.x when their system-installed Python is 3.y and the two are incompatible.

Then you use pyenv and pyenv virtualenv.

    pyenv install 3.9.47
    pyenv virtualenv 3.9.47 my app
    git clone …/myapp
    cd …/myapp
    pyenv local myapp
    pip install -r requirements.txt
Is it annoying, maybe, but I normally don’t trust system deps for anything.
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