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Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

nytimes.com

21–30 of 299 posts

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#21
I don't think economists use terms like 'growth' in a very consistent manner.

For example: trees are constantly growing in a forest, and trees are also constantly dying, but the overall population size (number of trees in a forest) remains generally stable, in the absence of major changes in climate and animal predation of trees (such as clear-cutting forests).

A lot of uses of growth in economics appear to be related to growth of rates, not growth of something like mass. For example, carbon flows through grasslands at a greater rate than it does in forests; the carbon in a grassland was in the atmosphere at most a few years ago while a tree in a forest can be several hundred years old. The rate at which money flows through an economy (less misers, basically, mean higher transactions) is linked to economic growth.

However, growth in terms of growth of the number of buildings in a city and numbers of humans in a city, that's absolutely tied to the amount of arable land each human needs for food production, so obviously that's not an open-ended system, and in particular, if there's not enough water then the land isn't arable.

Again, if a city of fixed size improves the average quality of life for its inhabitants, then that's a kind of economic growth, isn't it? Even if resource use (in terms of conservation of mass and energy) is fixed, you can still have economic improvements within that steady-state system, can't you?

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#23
post #11

There's a whole universe out there. We're not even close to exhausting how much we could grow.

Space migration is possible but would it matter?

You could build a big Mars settlement and that would have its own economy but how much would that add growth to Earth? Transit times are long and the cost to move goods is high for fundamental physical reasons, leaving intangibles as the only thing that could trade in really high volume.

I doubt an increase in software or media from Mars could compensate for limits to growth on Earth.

On a side note: I suspect that demand limits to growth from stabilizing or falling population and decreasing marginal utility of goods and services (“saturation”) will be as significant as limiters of growth as supply side limits.

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#24
The pandemic made it clear that elites are ok with mass death and debilitation. It may not be a conspiracy, but people in power simply don’t care. So the logical conclusion is that a lot of the most vulnerable people are going to perish, the hardier ones will hobble by in filthy conditions like what you see in old age homes today (but there will be a gun around if they wanna quickly end their misery).

Structural change on a massive scale is required to change the status quo.

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#25

Honestly I think this is obvious to anyone who is not financially motivated to think otherwise. The biggest problem is the rich have created a system in which people's future (retirement) is basically linked to "the market" growing over their lifetime. And the hopes that if they get lucky enough with the market they can retire early (or at all). This system of course is built 100% on governments/employers not wanting…

I would absolutely love it if dividend yield stocks made a big comeback.

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#27
post #4

A finite system cannot sustain infinite growth. Not that this summarizes the article, but that'd be a pretty logical statement.

We are nowhere near exhausting the resources we have available.

We are also nowhere near optimal efficiency when using resources.

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#29
post #5

Without peaceful growth, eventually there will be military growth [expansion by the means of military violence]. Op is right that our Earth is limited and cannot grow indefinitely. Sometimes it will be followed by redistribution of growth, so that someone will continue to grow, while others will experience radical negative growth

Why can’t we have stability?

Because humans are hardcoded for maximising personal gain. There will always be someone who will not accept stability and escalate at a different level.
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