Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#71

Post by LtWorf » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #46

120photo wrote: post #44

I tried porting a Python utility I wrote to Go specifically because I did not want people to have to install any 3rd party libraries (in this case just one). If anything I had a much deeper appreciation as to how much Python does for you and just lets you work. I would still like to port someday. For now I can containerize my app but that would still require people to install docker and learn how to use docker.

You don't need docker to bundle an app with custom libraries. You can use AppImage which is pretty much just an ordinary app install rolled into a single file.

i guess he's not using linux, otherwise python dependencies would be no problem

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#72

Post by ksdnjweusdnkl21 » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

jeremydw wrote: post #38

ActorNightly wrote: post #6

>sharing your code is even pain with colleagues even if they are using the same operating system, mainly because the Python requirement file doesn't pin dependencies, wat? Pretty sure you can use == in requirements.txt Also, its very possible, and quite easy to just include the code for the library in your package, which effectively "locks in" the version. We did this all the time when building AWS lambda deployments…

This comment section itself clearly shows how crazy dependency and environment management is in Python. In this thread alone, we've received instructions to... - poetry - "Just pin the dependencies and use Docker" - pip freeze - Vendoring in dependency code - pipreqs - virtualenv This is simply a mess and it's handled much better in other languages. I manage a small agency team and there are some weeks where I feel l…

I agree that it is handled better in many other languages. However, Go has some weird thing with imports going on. When I tried to learn it I just could not import a function from another file. Some env variable making the program not find the path. Many stackoverflow/reddit threads condecendenly pointed to some setup guide in official docs which did not fix or explain the situation.

After an few hours or so of not making much progress in AOC day 1 I just gave up and never continued learning Go.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#73

Post by Bullfight2Cond » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

jeremydw wrote: post #38

ActorNightly wrote: post #6

>sharing your code is even pain with colleagues even if they are using the same operating system, mainly because the Python requirement file doesn't pin dependencies, wat? Pretty sure you can use == in requirements.txt Also, its very possible, and quite easy to just include the code for the library in your package, which effectively "locks in" the version. We did this all the time when building AWS lambda deployments…

This comment section itself clearly shows how crazy dependency and environment management is in Python. In this thread alone, we've received instructions to... - poetry - "Just pin the dependencies and use Docker" - pip freeze - Vendoring in dependency code - pipreqs - virtualenv This is simply a mess and it's handled much better in other languages. I manage a small agency team and there are some weeks where I feel l…

one more that supports the latest standards: https://pdm.fming.dev/

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#74

Post by LtWorf » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:42 PM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #2

TL;DR: Python is hard because of library dependencies, go is better about that because of compiling to an executable, but is pickier about code quality ("I just want to try something"), and has more issues with library quality.

I've encountered input libraries in go tha for some reason just grab all the signals and whatnot, so you can't ctrl+c, sighup, sigterm, use ctrl+z to return to the shell… the only option is to do a kill -9 from a different shell.

Great library indeed :D

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#75

Post by zozbot234 » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:43 PM UTC

LtWorf wrote: post #71

zozbot234 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need docker to bundle an app with custom libraries. You can use AppImage which is pretty much just an ordinary app install rolled into a single file.

i guess he's not using linux, otherwise python dependencies would be no problem

Docker is linux specific. It can only run in a VM on non-linux platforms.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#76

Post by nathants » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

vonseel wrote: post #58

nathants wrote: post #33

i dragged my feet on go for a long time. i also thought that skipping go and moving to rust was the play. a few years later, i still write python often, but i don’t build systems with it. python i now use like bash, to glue things together and automate random things. it’s a fantastic language and i will never drop it. the verbosity of go is the biggest hurdle for a pythonista. the thought of giving up context manager…

Do Go programmers also not like capitalization? Just a tease, I noticed the readme and your comment don't have any Capitalized Letters. Well, the readme has a few but you know what I mean.

i can only speak for myself. i reserve raising my voice for where it's APPROPRIATE. as with the python/go debate, aesthetics are subjective.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#77

Post by LtWorf » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

37ef_ced3 wrote: post #52

returningfory2 wrote: post #30

> I had heard of Go for many years, but never stuck with it; it gets constant negative press on Hacker News/Reddit I think on Hacker News it's really fashionable to criticize Go, and this has led to a culture where Go gets significantly more negativity than it deserves. As technologists, one of our most important jobs is to see through such fashions and judge languages/tools/technologies based on their actual merit.…

As an engineer who uses Go and appreciates it as a replacement for most purposes where you might use C or C++, the complaints just seem bizarre. You've got people who argue against explicit error checking and people who don't understand the important role of nil pointers and people who don't see the massive net win of garbage collection in concurrent programs, and so on. Endlessly. It feels like a waste of time defen…

But C++ had generics ages ago already… You never used those?

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#78

Post by obviouslynotme » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

37ef_ced3 wrote: post #52

returningfory2 wrote: post #30

> I had heard of Go for many years, but never stuck with it; it gets constant negative press on Hacker News/Reddit I think on Hacker News it's really fashionable to criticize Go, and this has led to a culture where Go gets significantly more negativity than it deserves. As technologists, one of our most important jobs is to see through such fashions and judge languages/tools/technologies based on their actual merit.…

As an engineer who uses Go and appreciates it as a replacement for most purposes where you might use C or C++, the complaints just seem bizarre. You've got people who argue against explicit error checking and people who don't understand the important role of nil pointers and people who don't see the massive net win of garbage collection in concurrent programs, and so on. Endlessly. It feels like a waste of time defen…

Go has always been a Java, C#, Python, and Ruby killer. It has not and never will be a C or C++ killer. C is the language of libraries and embedded, neither of which Go is good for. C++ is the language of large systems that need extreme control over resource allocation. Go is not good for this either.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#79

Post by adra » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

37ef_ced3 wrote: post #52

returningfory2 wrote: post #30

> I had heard of Go for many years, but never stuck with it; it gets constant negative press on Hacker News/Reddit I think on Hacker News it's really fashionable to criticize Go, and this has led to a culture where Go gets significantly more negativity than it deserves. As technologists, one of our most important jobs is to see through such fashions and judge languages/tools/technologies based on their actual merit.…

As an engineer who uses Go and appreciates it as a replacement for most purposes where you might use C or C++, the complaints just seem bizarre. You've got people who argue against explicit error checking and people who don't understand the important role of nil pointers and people who don't see the massive net win of garbage collection in concurrent programs, and so on. Endlessly. It feels like a waste of time defen…

Languages generally aren't stuck in time. If we actually want languages to evolve and in ways that are actually valuable to real people (not a small subset of those developers writing it), then these pieces should be an invaluable resource to help steer the language in the direction that will most reward adoption, longevity, etc.

Re: Learning Go as a Python Developer: The Good and the Bad

#80

Post by korijn » Mon, Jul 18, 2022, 8:45 PM UTC

jeremydw wrote: post #38

ActorNightly wrote: post #6

>sharing your code is even pain with colleagues even if they are using the same operating system, mainly because the Python requirement file doesn't pin dependencies, wat? Pretty sure you can use == in requirements.txt Also, its very possible, and quite easy to just include the code for the library in your package, which effectively "locks in" the version. We did this all the time when building AWS lambda deployments…

This comment section itself clearly shows how crazy dependency and environment management is in Python. In this thread alone, we've received instructions to... - poetry - "Just pin the dependencies and use Docker" - pip freeze - Vendoring in dependency code - pipreqs - virtualenv This is simply a mess and it's handled much better in other languages. I manage a small agency team and there are some weeks where I feel l…

Is it a mess? Yes. But, is the problem to be solved perhaps much simpler "in other languages"? Do you interface with C++ libraries, system-managed dependencies, and perhaps your GPU in these other languages? Or are all your dependencies purely coded in these other languages, making everything simpler?

Of course the answer to these questions could be anything but to me it feels like attacks on Python's package management are usually cheap shots on a much much more complicated problem domain than the "complainers" are typically aware of.