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Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

nytimes.com

1–10 of 299 posts

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#2
Daly makes the case that conventional economics deals with "intermediate" means and ends, such as food production and health/leisure; and that we should instead be more concerned with "ultimate" means and ends.

He explains that "ultimate means" are necessarily constrained by entropy. He equivocates on what the ultimate ends are, but professes his own Christian belief in a creator [sic]. Unfortunately, he ends his argument by doing the very thing of which he accuses his non-religious counterparts -- accusing them of sticking up their noses at religious people, and positing a ridiculous straw-man: "They look down their noses at religious people who say there’s a creator: That’s unscientific. What’s the scientific view? We won the cosmic lottery. Come on."

Otherwise, I'm on-board with sustainable living. I think our current economic model is doomed, and our ancestors will suffer for our excess. Accounting for ecological cost and implementing tariffs for those countries that don't seems like a reasonable step.

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#5
Without peaceful growth, eventually there will be military growth [expansion by the means of military violence].

Op is right that our Earth is limited and cannot grow indefinitely. Sometimes it will be followed by redistribution of growth, so that someone will continue to grow, while others will experience radical negative growth

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#6
post #5

Without peaceful growth, eventually there will be military growth [expansion by the means of military violence]. Op is right that our Earth is limited and cannot grow indefinitely. Sometimes it will be followed by redistribution of growth, so that someone will continue to grow, while others will experience radical negative growth

Why can’t we have stability?

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#8
Honestly I think this is obvious to anyone who is not financially motivated to think otherwise.

The biggest problem is the rich have created a system in which people's future (retirement) is basically linked to "the market" growing over their lifetime. And the hopes that if they get lucky enough with the market they can retire early (or at all). This system of course is built 100% on governments/employers not wanting to guarantee financial security of elders and offload the risk to the individual. Also the rich have a massive incentive for everyone to "invest" (cough) and drive prices up, because the rich benefit insanely more by market movements than a standard person does.

Maybe the system will explode in our lifetime, maybe not. But all this insanity focus of growth, profits, etc with no genuine regard to real social issues (providing basic stability to people whether it be healthcare, housing, food, childcare) is so sick I can barely even think about it. And there's almost nothing to do about it- that's the way things currently "work" and it seems insurmountable to do anything about it.

Re: Pioneering economist says our obsession with growth must end

#9
Is not growth inevitable? I hear criticisms of it but is it not what happens automatically when there is competition for resources? I can't really see what the alternative would be. I mean, ideally if you could just agree with everyone in the entire world that no one should strive for something better, we could stay where we are, but reaching such agreement seems impossible.

And let's say instead we change direction to reshape society, to become more ecological, more sustainable etc. That will require innovation, labor, capital etc. That is also a kind of growth! Like a child stops growing in height at some point, but continues to evolve intellectually etc.

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