I'm curious about the following line you said.
> I can't bare the devs that go out of their way to work weekends without being asked
What is wrong with the devs who work on weekends? (if they aren't bothering you, of course)
Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
121–130 of 350 posts
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#122There's a difference between Programming and Software Development and I think it's important to recognise that difference when looking at your career. Programming is one small aspect of software development. It's an absolutely essential part, and it's the part you probably enjoy the most. But despite being an essential core part, it's also a part which only occupies maybe 20% of your time. Some software developers de…
Hey, I have a counterpoint to one of your comments wrt attitude concerning meetings: if I sit in a Teams call with 50 other people, mic muted, camera off, listening to some person I haven't seen before talk about some business development I haven't heard of before, it's not going to matter what attitude I have. No-one will notice "what energy I bring" into that meeting. None of it matters. It's just one more day of b…
I hear you, company wide status meetings can seem pointless.
I've worked at places where there were large "company update meetings" for the whole company. They were only once a month but still frustrating to lose an afternoon to listen to every detail about who the sales team pitched to this month. Seemingly we had to have every detail of their job explained but the entire software development team had 5 minutes at most to say what they'd done.
It was a source of friction between the development team and the management team especially during crunch times when we really couldn't afford to be losing an afternoon for the whole team.
We managed to persuade our boss to let us remote in to the meetings from our desks instead, so we could listen along while getting on with work.
With covid normalising remote work, large meetings can be both easier to deal with due to not having to have physical presence but also more of a strain as it's harder to get meaningful output from them.
Can you skip that meeting?
If attendance is mandatory and recorded can you make objections to being made to attend?
If not, and if the meeting is genuinely a waste of your time, can you just mute the meeting / take off your headphones and get on with your work?
If you have retrospectives, then be sure to call out that 50 person meeting as a waste of developer time and don't be scared to keep hammering the point that it's taking away a large amount of resource. Be sure if (when) there is pushback from higher ups that you listen to why they think it's important that you attend.
If it's genuinely taking up a whole day on a regular basis then there may be a culture issue. In general culture problems are worth an attempt at fighting, but be aware that most of the time the culture won't change and you might find you're no longer considered a good culture fit and nudged out if you fight too hard.
All companies are different, and it's worth spending a while job hopping to better understand the company landscape and where you best fit. Don't listen to people who say that job hopping looks bad on a CV, especially early on in a career. That's a myth peddled by people who grew up in a different time and who are largely in charge and don't want people to job hop because it costs them money to recruit.
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#123> I can't bare the devs that go out of their way to work weekends without being asked, I can't bare the endless meetings, constant micromanagement, bringing the stress home to my family. Have you considered just changing jobs? Not all places work weekend/have tons of meetings/micromanage. Maybe take time to assess what you like and dislike about your job and try to find a less stressful environment that fits your exp…
Very, very good points here. You're right, the stress part is 100% a personal and perspective issue. I do try to convince myself that "no-one is dying" but the sad reality is that if I don't constantly meet deadliness, prove myself, and go above and beyond for the company (over-time and over-work); as "over the top" as it may sound, it's my kids that "die" when I lose my job and cannot provide.
If you have to work on weekends to meet deadlines, have you considered that the problem is not about yourself but about the deadline?
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#124I had(have) the same problem but I'm successfully resolving it. In the last 10 days I made more progress than 10 years combined before. Why? Because I realized that the problem is inside of my mind. What is causing me to not finish/doubt my own projects? There are many reasons, each unique to each persons's mind. One must brutaly focus in on the specific reasons and resolve them. The solution that is working for me:…
Great comment. Thank you.
I'm currently reading "Manifest. 7 steps to living your best life". It's pretty much exactly what you've described. It sounds like you're going through an amazing transformation. Embrace it and change your life. They don't come round often.
Give that book a read when you get the chance :)
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#125There's a difference between Programming and Software Development and I think it's important to recognise that difference when looking at your career. Programming is one small aspect of software development. It's an absolutely essential part, and it's the part you probably enjoy the most. But despite being an essential core part, it's also a part which only occupies maybe 20% of your time. Some software developers de…
In my 2+ decades at Apple, I think I enjoyed working on frameworks more than I enjoyed working on applications for many of the reasons you mention.
Your "customer" for a framework is a fellow dev. That can make all the difference in the world. Design and marketing generally take a back seat.
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#126I highly recommend doing what I have done most of my career. Get a job at smaller to medium sized non-tech company. Every company, in any industry, has computers. They need you. You don't have to work with a bunch of tech or finance people. You can get a job working with chill people in some other industry with a better culture. When it comes time to negotiate, negotiate HARD. And not just for money, but especially t…
I don't think this is what OP wants. He hates regular jobs. He wants to work on his inspiring projects, but doesn't know well how to monetize/market them.
Yes but if OP is building stuff on the side, this type of employment may give the time & headspace to do it, along with less stress.
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#127> I love building and working - always have, always will. ... but the industry is literally destroying my soul and it has recently become crippling. Then alea iacta est , you have thrown your dice, and must destroy it before it destroys you. You must "take back tech", by building and working against all that you see around you. Welcome to the exhilarating challenge of being a real hacker and entrepreneur.
Keep at it. We'll get through it and have freedom one day.
One day.
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#128I highly recommend doing what I have done most of my career. Get a job at smaller to medium sized non-tech company. Every company, in any industry, has computers. They need you. You don't have to work with a bunch of tech or finance people. You can get a job working with chill people in some other industry with a better culture. When it comes time to negotiate, negotiate HARD. And not just for money, but especially t…
> Increasingly, the only engineers that non-tech companies need are people to manage their data, people to glue the SaaS APIs together, and maybe some frontend people to put a custom interface on it.
I presume you didn't see much industry yet. In reality, every existing company that is around for 10+ years have already tons of legacy apps or apps nearing that threshold, a lot of times tightly integrated in the rest of ecosystem. That isn't going away for some shiny new SAAS overnight, nor over year.
I've been hearing similar predictions since at least 2010 and they are just not true for much of the business.
Our bank (and in bank, IT is always just a cost center) has tons of external SAAS systems. Yet our internal systems grow, their integration grows and we are actually hiring more people to handle all this.
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s a difference between programming for fun on personal projects etc in your own time vs. doing work without compensation. Working overtime for free is not only allowing your employer to steal from you, but sets unreasonable expectations on all of your colleagues, too.
I work at a place where if you don't work overtime you are considered garbage. Everyone will beat up on you any chance they can because they are bitter. Meanwhile, not everyone has that luxury. Single parents, caregivers, etc. Just because you write code doesn't mean you live a kushy life...
Sounds stupid if it is expected.
For me, I need motivation and flow. Meetings often disturb my flow and if I’m not in the mood I‘ll work less hours between Monday to Friday and add a few hours on the weekend.
If there are production issues there also might be benefits of solving or working around a bug as soon as possible vs fixing and cleaning up later.
But doing consistently more than 40 hours per week will lead to burnout. Don’t do this. Work smarter, not harder.
Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?
#130I think most people here can. That's why, when people have enough money to retire, they DO retire, and not continue working. Work for most people is trading time and physical and mental health for money. In our profession, we got it better than most, but the underlying principle is still the same. Also, there are definitely better and worse companies. I'm currently in the best job of my life (well paying, fully remot…
I disagree about the retirement thing - I knew a lot of multi-millionaires from a very successful IPO who kept working for 5+ years afterwards. Even fully vested they had all their friends at work, they had a lot of influence, it was like a weird little social club for mostly dudes who didn't really have other hobbies outside of work. I agree about the second half, though. My current job is just a terrible meat grind…
I’ve been at my job for 14 months and I’m in the top 10 percentile for tenure. This includes C-suite. Lol