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Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

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Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#91
post #43

For me it’s the insane hazing ritual of the tech interview process that makes me want to leave the industry. I’m going through it again now, and honestly am pretty miserable. It has a large negative impact on the rest of my life and my mental health. When I was younger it was manageable, but the fact you have to do this even mid or late career every few years is insane to me. Wish I had gone into literally any other…

> the insane hazing ritual of the tech interview process

That's it, exactly. I was a hiring manager for 25 years, and never gave a single coding test, during that time. I never made any technical errors. The only bad hires were folks that couldn't adapt to the work environment. Some of them were quite technically proficient.

Some of my most gratifying hires, were ones that came in, with little tech proficiency or experience. I kept people for a long time, and helped them to develop their careers. It was not always a a bad thing, when they left. If my company wasn't willing to do what it took, to keep them, then I sincerely wished them luck.

In my rather truncated modern interview cycle (I gave up, after a few months), I came to understand that the interview process is, quite literally, a hazing ritual. Companies don't want "outside the box" thinking. They want people that won't rock the boat, and will do as they are told. I also personally believe that leetcode tests are "young pass filters." Us "olds" are quite unpopular, and it has nothing at all to do with how much we cost. In my entire career, I never made as much as many kids get, at their first job (yet, I still have more to show for it, than many).

When I would ask interviewers why they refused to look at my portfolio, and, instead relied exclusively on leetcode tests, they would hem and haw, but eventually, it would boil down to "Well, I got hazed, so you are, too."

After running into this a few times, I realized the fox ain't worth the chase.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the retirement thing - I knew a lot of multi-millionaires from a very successful IPO who kept working for 5+ years afterwards. Even fully vested they had all their friends at work, they had a lot of influence, it was like a weird little social club for mostly dudes who didn't really have other hobbies outside of work. I agree about the second half, though. My current job is just a terrible meat grind…

> I knew a lot of multi-millionaires Stop right there. I don't think this contradicts the statement "I think most people here can [relate]" Yes, a million $/€/£ isn't what it once was, and being a millionaire isn't in itself an indicator of exceptional riches, but the term "multi-millionaire" still certainly implies a level of wealth that sets one apart from the average (even among ycombinator-readers). And I would i…

> Yes, a million $/€/£ isn't what it once was

Stop right here. The parent comment was about multi-millionaires 5+ years ago.

Assuming everything hasn't been spent, riches becomes richer when you have capital.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#93
I know that feel, bro. especially as a webdev.

the field is dominated by corporate marketing, cargo-cultism, resume padding, reinventing the wheel and fixing what isn't broken.

since I've chosen this as my career 8 years ago or so, I've managed to get by without ever dealing with someone else's bullshit. I have some income from personal projects and some income from greenfield one-off jobs, I get by for now, but I dread the day when I might need to get an actual job to get a mortgage or after I emigrate

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#94
Yea I’m pretty much the same way. I love building, but the advent of product management and the commoditization of software work through “agile processes” has pushed me out. I’m not a drone, but that’s all a company views my skill set as. My solution has been to push further and further up the management chain to avoid the things I hate. I’m now about to start a company because of this lack of autonomy and love for building/creating.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#95

There's a difference between Programming and Software Development and I think it's important to recognise that difference when looking at your career. Programming is one small aspect of software development. It's an absolutely essential part, and it's the part you probably enjoy the most. But despite being an essential core part, it's also a part which only occupies maybe 20% of your time. Some software developers de…

I have to say, any tech organization that has its engineers only coding 20% of the time is doing it wrong. Yes there's much more to software development than pure coding, but 20% would suggest serious organizational structure and process issues.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#96
post #68

I highly recommend doing what I have done most of my career. Get a job at smaller to medium sized non-tech company. Every company, in any industry, has computers. They need you. You don't have to work with a bunch of tech or finance people. You can get a job working with chill people in some other industry with a better culture. When it comes time to negotiate, negotiate HARD. And not just for money, but especially t…

I wouldn't worry about no code software. They usually can only get you a quarter of the way. Then the requests start coming in and then the client wants their custom workflow in the app and no code can't do it. It usually doesn't take much for the client to realize they need something more custom. I work in the GIS industry and its a great mix of always learning something new but not only working with tech people.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#98
post #52

> I can't bare the devs that go out of their way to work weekends without being asked, I can't bare the endless meetings, constant micromanagement, bringing the stress home to my family. Have you considered just changing jobs? Not all places work weekend/have tons of meetings/micromanage. Maybe take time to assess what you like and dislike about your job and try to find a less stressful environment that fits your exp…

Very, very good points here. You're right, the stress part is 100% a personal and perspective issue. I do try to convince myself that "no-one is dying" but the sad reality is that if I don't constantly meet deadliness, prove myself, and go above and beyond for the company (over-time and over-work); as "over the top" as it may sound, it's my kids that "die" when I lose my job and cannot provide.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about the retirement thing - I knew a lot of multi-millionaires from a very successful IPO who kept working for 5+ years afterwards. Even fully vested they had all their friends at work, they had a lot of influence, it was like a weird little social club for mostly dudes who didn't really have other hobbies outside of work. I agree about the second half, though. My current job is just a terrible meat grind…

> I knew a lot of multi-millionaires Stop right there. I don't think this contradicts the statement "I think most people here can [relate]" Yes, a million $/€/£ isn't what it once was, and being a millionaire isn't in itself an indicator of exceptional riches, but the term "multi-millionaire" still certainly implies a level of wealth that sets one apart from the average (even among ycombinator-readers). And I would i…

What's relatable to me about your post as well as the ancestors posts is mostly about the comfort level allowing one to actually enjoy the industry.

For example, when I wasn't comfortable, I was always chasing the next language/framework so that I was marketable to someone else's company, and this was actually at the expense of the best solution for whatever company I was at. It was always like "lets make this new microservice, in this new language", "let's refactor this whole project but blame 100% of it on the prior developer and no other ulterior motive whatsoever", "what's the personal development budget again? sure, I'll tell you all about my goal of learning this new language you don't use". Most of the engineers are doing it. If you're drowning, save yourself first.

and now its fantasticaly liberating for me to simply not have to do that! It opens up other possibilities I couldn't understand, such as learning a super niche and new language even if the payoff wasn't clear, this allows me to contribute to projects that I would have ruled out and ironically become more marketable when the premium is highest. It allows me to dive deeper into more time-tested languages, and more.

Re: Ask HN: I love programming but hate the industry. Can anyone relate?

#100
Yeah. I work at a (really competent, adult managed) startup but I can’t stop #%^*ing on Silicon Valley startup culture.

I also feel like I’m daring them to fire me given I literally cannot be reached outside 9-5. They don’t even have my correct phone number on file. And I have to bite my tongue when thinking about some coworkers who basically work for less money given they put in 60+ hours.

It’s weird. I believe, almost romantically, in my current company. They’re the real deal. But I’m still so sour and jaded because of my last company.

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