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Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#101

Post by krisoft »

t_mann wrote: post #93

Bit of a tangent, but the 'mutually assured destruction' meme is a cold-war-era concept relying on some strong assumptions - namely that any country would be able to credibly claim that they could take out US strike capabilities in the first place. Russia claims to have inherited that capability from the Soviet union, but that claim looks increasingly suspicious, with the war in Ukraine exposing not only systemic cor…

> namely that any country would be able to credibly claim that they could take out US strike capabilities in the first place.

That has nothing to do with mutually assured destruction. MAD is about: “you strike at us? We will detect it and strike back at you destroying your cities. Our people might all die, but your people will too.”

It does not assume that any party can take out the strike force of any other party.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#102

Post by nix23 »

t_mann wrote: post #93

Bit of a tangent, but the 'mutually assured destruction' meme is a cold-war-era concept relying on some strong assumptions - namely that any country would be able to credibly claim that they could take out US strike capabilities in the first place. Russia claims to have inherited that capability from the Soviet union, but that claim looks increasingly suspicious, with the war in Ukraine exposing not only systemic cor…

>'mutually assured destruction' meme is a cold-war-era concept relying on some strong assumptions - namely that any country would be able to credibly claim that they could take out US strike capabilities in the first place.

No, it just means that the Soviets or the US can take each other out. That's why first-strike weapons where so important and ""too" much countermeasures against them was kind of "badly regarded".

And it was no "meme" but official politics, until Ronald Reagan and his star-wars program, where the end goal was not a stalemate towards the Soviets but the destruction of their capability to deliver aka "100% protection from soviet ICBM's"

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#103

Post by K0balt »

lostlogin wrote: post #84
lb1lf wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be joking, but do keep in mind that the Canadians (well, the British, but if memory serves, a significant fraction of the force were from Canada) sacked Washington D.C. in 1814.

If anyone is going to sack D.C. in the near future, it would seem most likely to be Americans.

Tbf the Canadians would probably be more pleasant about the whole ordeal.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#104

Post by robocat »

hdevalence wrote: post #78
Retric wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ships much larger than ohio subs can get into and out of the Great Lakes via locks. Looks like the real reason is a US Canadian treaty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush–Bagot_Treaty

Wikipedia lists the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawaymax size as allowing at most 26.5’ of draft, while the Ohio-class submarines require 35.5’. So treaty aside, it seems probably not physically possible, even though the locks are bigger in other dimensions.

Add extra flotation - exercise left for reader to solve.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#105

Post by robocat »

XorNot wrote: post #16
dontlaugh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US uses submarines to threaten attacks on far away countries, not for defence.

No it doesn't. Ballistic missile submarines are exclusively useful as second strike weapons: they don't carry enough warheads, nor are they accurate enough to first strike weapons (which have to reliably hit military targets and threaten an opponent's retaliation ability).

If doing a first strike, submarine launched missiles could easily be useful simultaneously with land based launches.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#106

Post by muchtest »

t_mann wrote: post #93

Bit of a tangent, but the 'mutually assured destruction' meme is a cold-war-era concept relying on some strong assumptions - namely that any country would be able to credibly claim that they could take out US strike capabilities in the first place. Russia claims to have inherited that capability from the Soviet union, but that claim looks increasingly suspicious, with the war in Ukraine exposing not only systemic cor…

I've heard this dangerous narrative down playing dangers of nuclear war from people who have never experienced a total war before & are leaning into narratives spread by the military-industrial complex.

However many failures the Russian military may have, all it takes is 1 missile hitting a major city and you'll see more deaths in the US than have been seen in all the wars it fought combined.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#107

Post by bambax »

> To protect the stealth of submarines, Mishra says, “There is a need for creative thinking. One possibility is exploring a code of conduct for the employment of emerging technologies for surveillance missions.”

I don't buy that. It would be way too tempting to be able to detect submarines for any nation not to use the technology.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#108

Post by hdivider »

Can such detection be countered with the same technology? Eg an ML system that controls emission of noise, light (optical and otherwise), and wiggles a magnetic field about in just the right way to make it look like natural noise, to an adversary's state-of-the-art AI-based detection system.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#110

Post by _y5hn »

t_mann wrote: post #93

Bit of a tangent, but the 'mutually assured destruction' meme is a cold-war-era concept relying on some strong assumptions - namely that any country would be able to credibly claim that they could take out US strike capabilities in the first place. Russia claims to have inherited that capability from the Soviet union, but that claim looks increasingly suspicious, with the war in Ukraine exposing not only systemic cor…

Look into the Nuclear Triad. States with this capability can strike at any time by missile, aircraft and subs. There's no chance to take out strike capabilities.
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