U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#311

Post by Doyce » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:04 AM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #198

nimbius wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

healthcare reform, gun control, education reform and labor reform. these are all very hard, but adding a telco service is relatively easy. btw many is cities can barely keep their dispatch for 911 staffed.

> healthcare reform, gun control, education reform and labor reform One of these things is not like the others. There's no need for gun control once a society has implemented the other three; violence and suidice (with or without access to firearms) is a direct function of socioeconomic inequality - and I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic ineq…

I'm not sure how you got it that violence and suicide is all because of socioeconomic inequality.

Suicide is a direct function of depressive issues and circumstances that peaks on you at the same time you get that one too many "it's gonna be a bad day" piece of news. I'm a suicide survivor (I say survivor because I didn't attempt anything. I succeeded.) whose only alive because my bulldog lead my youngest brother to where I was outside as he had dropped by to see me. A lethal dose of methadone is 50mg. I took 500mg and washed it down with Jim Beam. I was legally dead three times (once in the ambulance and twice in the ICU). I'm not going to say it doesn't happen....giving someone with depression all kinds government reform will do exactly nothing to cure that depression. More affordable opportunity to seek mental health, sure...I'm with you. But even that is maybe 10% chance to prevent if they're down on a day when something happens. I had divorced as well as having my middle brother pass away within weeks of each other.

As far as violence? If you made everyone a millionaire today, there'd still be violence crime, hence violence to retaliate to that, tomorrow. Because people are never satisfied. And unless every physical asset was a cookie cutter model of every other item like it, people are going to be jealous of what someone else has. The best way to cure a lot of the violence is for people to leave each other alone and show some decency to each other.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#312

Post by swores » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:09 AM UTC

throwntoday wrote: post #248

TechBro8615 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, if someone has lost their motivation to live, that is the fault of the community around them, and it’s the responsibility of society to fix the failures that led to that loss of motivation. The path to fixing these failures is not to offer state-sponsored (or at least state-sanctioned, as your comment implies) lethal injection for anyone who asks for it. That’s sweeping the problems under the rug. I’m not religio…

Even with a loving community, there are those that just want to check out. Often they have trauma that is insurmountable. I am totally against suicide, but I thank God I'm not in a position today where it feels like my best choice. I've been on that ledge, but what it would do to my family, and fear of divine retribution kept me here long enough to realize my problems had solutions. Religion does have its merits, nam…

Are you missing a 'not' or are you indeed "totally against [all] suicide"? The 'but' immediately after makes it seem likely.

I'm glad it helped you turn around how you felt and come back from the metaphorical ledge. But can you be sure that there are more people for whom religions helped persuade them to find solutions rather than commit suicide, than people who never found release from their suffering and ensured many years more of it than they would otherwise had they not felt guilt forcing them to stay alive?

I've never believed in any religion so hard for me to put myself in that mindset, but I suppose it wouldn't make much of a difference to my understanding if I did since my point is that individual anecdotes can go either way. I do at least hope that more people are helped than hurt by religious pressure to stay alive (and indeed by religion generally).

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#313

Post by spoonjim » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:28 AM UTC

exadrid wrote: post #218

spoonjim wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t overindex on anecdotes. Policing has problems but in general where police in America have retreated, crime has gone up.

This "fact" is really really popular among conservative news, but nobody has hard evidence. Do you have a source?

Look at the arrests numbers and homicide numbers for all of the big cities pre and post George Floyd. Arrests are down, homicides are up.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#314

Post by malwarebytess » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:32 AM UTC

Have there been many thorough studies of the efficacy of these hotlines?

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#315

Post by Doyce » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:34 AM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #268

yellowapple wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 85% of shot suspects were armed with a deadly weapon. That percentage is artificially inflated due to LEOs having a very broad definition of "deadly weapon".

Guns kill people. Knives kill people. Hammers kill.. a surprising number of people.

I'll bet you $100 those SWAT deployment figures are so low because they aren't counting all the warrants they have them serve as deployments. Departments use them constantly for that kind of stuff. They love to hut hut around and play soldier.

Side note....did you read about those 150 Americans they chose randomly, and then stripped them of their right to vote as well as their right to firearms? It's funny how I could spread that fake story and people would lose their minds talking about a government not long to stand. Yet, if I say that 150 unarmed Americans were murdered by agents of the state who were violating their civil liberties under color of authority you'll cite the national population and say that shows great professionalism. Oh....the FBI is about to stop tracking those stats since only 57% of total LEO reported to them for the 2021 numbers. Just 44% reported the year prior.

This entire bizzaro world of where it's patriotic to support a group of revenue generators for the state being able to murder someone because, "Well....he took a breath faster then the previous one and I was sure he had a SAW system in your pocket....so me and Fred shot him 37 times. Well....we shot at him 37 times. But a few hit him. Some random house of someone in that area luckily took all the wayward rounds for us!", meaning it takes a true patriot to understand that our rights are all based on supporting someone who will allow you to die or end you themselves if they even see a shadow that makes them think that you mean him harm and are planning his demise.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#316

Post by smallerfish » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:36 AM UTC

throwaway742 wrote: post #303

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale The same state that sends its youth off to die in wars? Or that executes them when it so chooses?

Obviously war can benefit the state so it becomes a simple cost benefit analysis. Execution does seem to be irrational when you could instead force them into a lifetime of involuntary servitude.

Not arguing for it, but the scale of execution is insignificant in comparison to suicide.

Suicides in the US (where assisted suicide is illegal): 45,979 (with 1.2M attempts)

Executions in the US: 17

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#317

Post by smallerfish » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:38 AM UTC

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

I'm not sure I agree with "lengthy waiting period". For somebody with a terminal disease, maybe it's simply too much to force them to wait 6-12 months. On the other hand, nobody wants to be "assisted" by impatient relatives, so the system would need robust checks and balances. But, yes, in many cases having access to painless euthanisia would be far more humane that what many societies currently force people to experience.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#318

Post by swores » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

smallerfish wrote: post #316

throwaway742 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously war can benefit the state so it becomes a simple cost benefit analysis. Execution does seem to be irrational when you could instead force them into a lifetime of involuntary servitude.

Not arguing for it, but the scale of execution is insignificant in comparison to suicide. Suicides in the US (where assisted suicide is illegal): 45,979 (with 1.2M attempts) Executions in the US: 17

I assume you're giving numbers from one specific year?

I'm not asking to imply you've cherry picked numbers, just that giving stats like that (number of actions for a country with no defined time period) is only telling half the story, and even though that half was enough to make your point I think the other half is worth including for the sake of curiosity :)

edit: yes seems to be 2020, search of that suicides number pointed to e.g. https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#319

Post by morelisp » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #213

mindslight wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$500 could be a reasonable fee if it were generally predictable, but you're completely ignoring the fraudulent $12,000 bill and the fact that OP had to sign up for "good" "insurance" to access the real price.

Keep in mind that something like 8% of Americans didn't have health insurance at any point last year. About 35 percent of Americans receive government-funded health insurance (Medicare or Medicaid). Our system isn't great, but it is the system we have and most people participate in it. Source: https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2021/demo/p60-27...

> Keep in mind that something like 8% of Americans didn't have health insurance at any point last year.

Again, I cannot stress enough how insane this sounds to someone from most other first-world countries.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#320

Post by swores » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 9:54 AM UTC

Lammy wrote: post #261

kromem wrote: post #242

I wonder at how proving a legal path to ending life for anyone (with a lengthy waiting period and multiple psych sessions) would reduce the instances of impromptu suicide. My suspicion is that the availability of a legitimized path to the same result, but with a far less traumatizing method for both the individual and their loved ones, might allow for transitioning people into getting help when that's not the outcome…

> state authorized suicide IMO there's no way this would ever become any sort of common occurrence, because the state would never willingly give up its human capital on that scale. "Again, when a man in violation of the law harms another (otherwise than in retaliation) voluntarily, he acts unjustly, and a voluntary agent is one who knows both the person he is affecting by his action and the instrument he is using; an…

While I of course don't think this should be the deciding factor, and I wouldn't write the following paragraph outside the context of your comment...

Isn't it possible that letting suicidal people kill themselves might actually save more in "wasted" economic output trying to save people who are perhaps beyond saving (therapists could spend more time helping non-suicidal people which could make them more productive, or less therapists needed so they retrain; maybe state aided suicide leads to more deaths and therefore more time spent grieving by friends and family, or maybe it would work out pretty much the same number of deaths but years earlier, potentially with those years otherwise eating lots of economic output out of their family & friends who are both emotionally distracted and likely spending time trying to help; etc) than gained by the possibility of some economic output from the saved person, which might happen or maybe a decade of homelessness later they die before working another hour.

I'm not convinced that politicians are against allowing suicide because they know how the numbers stack up and there's a solid economic case saying to force people to live. They're doing it, rightly or wrongly, either because they believe it's the right way for society to act, or because they think that's what the voters they need believe.

But maybe you're right that, if those beliefs started to fade, the economics would be worked out, show that my thinking above is wrong and that it is most profitable to ban suicide, and it would be a motivation for some people to cynically push people back towards those beliefs? Or maybe you think that motivation already is secretly driving propaganda or political lobbying or similar?