Will AI steal submarines’ stealth? • Hacker News Board

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#61

Post by RajT88 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:20 AM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #45

ok_dad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is subs deliver missiles halfway around the world, the rockets do the rest. It’s a matter of an hour for a rocket to transit from the Great Lakes to the other side of the planet, but half that for rockets fired from most of the way there already.

It does seem silly, but not out or the realm of possibility. The Great Lakes stretch further north and closer to the Russian heartland than almost any land in America. Any international waters further north and closer by great circle distance to Moscow, besides the north Atlantic, are covered in ice part of the year. Someone said it's cheaper to dig holes in the ground. The problem is those holes are on a first strik…

Great lakes commercial fisherman and also crew on container ships have said for years that they see weird stuff dozens of miles offshore in the Great lakes.

Fish stories and all that. But there is precedent for submarines and even aircraft carriers in the Great lakes. Lake Michigan is filled with crashed trainer aircraft from WWII.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#62

Post by RajT88 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:23 AM UTC

jwithington wrote: post #32

dexterdog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can nuke subs do that much damage to a ship? I thought they were equipped to hide from everything and deliver massive damage to large land-based targets.

Yes. The primary mission of “fast-attack” submarines are to shoot torpedoes and destroy ships and other submarines. It takes only one torpedo to disable most surface ships. An American Seawolf class submarine can carry ~50 torpedoes.

And 8 launch tubes to use them.

8 ships disabled on the first volley!

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#63

Post by DoingIsLearning » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:28 AM UTC

trasz wrote: post #25

avowud wrote: post #5

Does anyone know if there have been any breakthroughs in communicating with submarines underwater?

Like lasers?

Optics would need line of sight. The earth's curvature puts a very hard limit to how far you could communicate. The accepted standard in underwater is VLF, but as the name implies you are only capable of very low data rates.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#64

Post by dylan604 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:28 AM UTC

kiernanmcgowan wrote: post #36

ok_dad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is subs deliver missiles halfway around the world, the rockets do the rest. It’s a matter of an hour for a rocket to transit from the Great Lakes to the other side of the planet, but half that for rockets fired from most of the way there already.

You're skipping over the concept of "survivability" of submarines which enable a second-strike capability. It's not about getting the missiles closer to the enemy, but ensuring that there are nukes that can be launched in the case of the US falling to a surprise attack. In theory this would deter a first-strike against the US because the subs could still retaliate with massive damage. Thus, cutting second-strike capa…

Yes, the fact that nobody really knew where the subs were was a key factor in that first strike survivability. Even ComSubPacFlt only knew of very large sectors of ocean that a boat was to patrol, the rest was up to the captain and circumstances.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#65

Post by dylan604 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:30 AM UTC

trashtester wrote: post #31

trasz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true; subs are part of every carrier fleet.

Those would be Virginia class attacks subs, not ballistic missile subs, I think. An Ohio class could be added temporarily, though, to add even more cruise missile capability to the task force. (Since they, or at least some of them, are now dual purpose platforms.)

And how many of those Ohio class subs actually carry missles and have not been filled with cement ballast?

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#66

Post by pyuser583 » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:32 AM UTC

sgc wrote: post #52

ceejayoz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that ones based in the Great Lakes would be immune to interception by enemy submarines discovering and shadowing them; you're not gonna get an Akula up the St. Lawrence Seaway.

However, it would leave them is a small, well-known area and would allow for easier signature profiling via sensors mounted on any number of craft, that could then be used on other subs of the same class elsewhere in the world. That was the reason why when some idiot in the White House revealed where our subs were near China and HK, it was a big deal.

Some idiot in the White House? Link?

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#67

Post by cwillu » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:35 AM UTC

jakzurr wrote: post #14

Retric wrote: post #10

At least for the US why not keep one or more nuclear missile subs in the Great Lakes? Lake Superior alone covers 31,700 square miles to an average depth of 483 feet. It’s far to large an area to target with a first strike and well protected from non US/Canadian forces. Edit: A US/Canadian treaty demilitarized the Great Lakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush–Bagot_Treaty

We could use that as a defense against Canada. ;)

We send an army south every year right under your noses. You know them as “murder geese”.

‹honk›

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#68

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:37 AM UTC

ok_dad wrote: post #12

Retric wrote: post #10

At least for the US why not keep one or more nuclear missile subs in the Great Lakes? Lake Superior alone covers 31,700 square miles to an average depth of 483 feet. It’s far to large an area to target with a first strike and well protected from non US/Canadian forces. Edit: A US/Canadian treaty demilitarized the Great Lakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rush–Bagot_Treaty

The idea is subs deliver missiles halfway around the world, the rockets do the rest. It’s a matter of an hour for a rocket to transit from the Great Lakes to the other side of the planet, but half that for rockets fired from most of the way there already.

[1] https://designobserver.com/feature/blast-door-art-cave-paint... <- says 30 minutes or less.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#69

Post by wbl » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:39 AM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #16

dontlaugh wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US uses submarines to threaten attacks on far away countries, not for defence.

No it doesn't. Ballistic missile submarines are exclusively useful as second strike weapons: they don't carry enough warheads, nor are they accurate enough to first strike weapons (which have to reliably hit military targets and threaten an opponent's retaliation ability).

You would be impressed at how good INS systems have gotten plus if GPS is still up you have just as good a fix as on land.

Re: Will AI steal submarines’ stealth?

#70

Post by wbl » Sun, Jul 17, 2022, 5:40 AM UTC

whakim wrote: post #59

ceejayoz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would very much change the calculus for the UK and France, though. Maybe Israel, as well.

I'm not sure it'd change the calculus for the UK or France because they are NATO members which effectively ensures their second strike capability. (It certainly might change the cost/benefit calculation on building submarines, though!) Israel probably doesn't even subscribe to a second strike doctrine given that the potential adversaries they're trying to deter don't even have nuclear weapons.

Pakistan does have nuclear weapons and the risk of them transferring them to an Islamic fundamentalist trying to rid the middle east of Jews is nonzero.