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U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

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Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#231

Post by autoexec »

xwdv wrote: post #206
autoexec wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder what the impacts of having "Placed calls to the suicide hotline" in your permanent record will be on people's lives if they do choose not to take it. With the state collecting that data, your phone company collecting that data, your cell phone OS collecting that data, random apps collecting that data, and who knows who is on the other end of that call and what they're doing with your data. Will you be t…

Absolutely those things can happen, and they should. For example, imagine if an airplane pilot or anyone in a position of being responsible for a mass number of lives has previously called into suicide hotlines. Would you feel secure knowing the pilot of your plane once exhibited suicidal tendencies? I doubt it. Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected.

> Any bits of data we can collect to make accurate assessments should be collected.

This is the kind of thinking that got us into this mess. The data being collected may not be accurate, may not be interpreted correctly, and may not even be useful, but fearful people like you will happily use it for a tiny sliver of peace of mind.

Lets say the pilot on your next flight did call the suicide hotline 15 years ago after his wife and child were killed in a car wreak. Would that make him more likely to be a danger for you today than the pilot on your last flight who was currently suicidal but never called the hotline?

Lets say the pilot on your flight wasn't just going through a rough time 15 years ago, but was actively feeling suicidal on the day of your flight. Is it more likely that he would also be a mass murder who wanted to kill everyone on the plane, or is is more likely that he would kill himself later that day while alone in a hotel room at your destination city?

Thoughtcrime is a dangerous thing and our algorithms aren't so good at predicting human behavior that we should support handing out extrajudicial punishments to people based on what they might do. Those are things you should fear far more than what the mental health history of your pilot might suggest.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#232

Post by mindslight »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #154
mindslight wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$500 could be a reasonable fee if it were generally predictable, but you're completely ignoring the fraudulent $12,000 bill and the fact that OP had to sign up for "good" "insurance" to access the real price.

My intention was the opposite. By pointing out the $500 being reasonable, meaning that the insurance company negotiated a decent price. Obviously, the $12k is ludicrous, proven by them being willing to accept $500 for people who belong to an insurance plan. Health insurance in the US is not just insurance against a one time high cost event. One aspect of it is paying a business to gain access to lower pricing due to…

> One aspect of it is paying a business to gain access to lower pricing due to volume that you would be unable to get as an individual

It only makes sense to talk about volume discounts when there is actual savings from providing volume (for example, less packaging). Many different instances of individual care do not create such savings, for anything but handling the make-work billing paperwork that this system itself generates.

This idea that individuals shouldn't be market participants is a broken assertion that underlies much of our healthcare dysfunction. In the situation you're describing, the "insurance" company has zero market leverage over the ambulance provider, and so you're championing a specious "negotiation". Meanwhile individuals that need a ride to the hospital avoid calling 911 since they have no idea what it will cost, and instead look to markets with price transparency to fill in (ie markets where they're welcome).

A straightforward healthcare reform would be to eliminate this cartel dynamic of providers having a different price for each "insurance" company, and mandate that they charge the same published prices regardless of who is paying. At that point, insurance companies would financially provide real insurance rather than their current function of bundling and obfuscating price signals. There would no longer be this "out of network" nonsense, but rather insurance coverage would be based on percentages of market prices. Insurance companies could then recommend providers that charge lower prices to save money for themselves and their customers, while still allowing their customers to be market participants when their preferences differ.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#233

Post by nicoburns »

yellowapple wrote: post #198
nimbius wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

healthcare reform, gun control, education reform and labor reform. these are all very hard, but adding a telco service is relatively easy. btw many is cities can barely keep their dispatch for 911 staffed.

> healthcare reform, gun control, education reform and labor reform One of these things is not like the others. There's no need for gun control once a society has implemented the other three; violence and suidice (with or without access to firearms) is a direct function of socioeconomic inequality - and I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic ineq…

> I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic inequality at all, let alone before actually addressing that socioeconomic inequality.

Does that imply you'd support an armed insurrection? That seems pretty extreme! And if not, then why exactly do these people need guns?

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#235

Post by nicoburns »

staticman2 wrote: post #221
parineum wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's a job that requires you to commit reprehensible acts It absolutely does not require that. > If our laws, law enforcement methods...weren't horrifying Give some examples and provide some practical solutions.

I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act, especially when you consider what it does to their family members, so I believe being a police officer requires you to commit reprehensible acts. Your mileage may vary.

> I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act

Are you actually required to do that as a police officer? Would it not be up to the discretion of the officer as to whether it was in the public interest to make an arrest or not? Here in the UK it would be pretty unusual for someone to be arrested for getting high unless they were causing a public nuisance, property damage, or similar.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#236

Post by WebbWeaver »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #141
autoexec wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder what the impacts of having "Placed calls to the suicide hotline" in your permanent record will be on people's lives if they do choose not to take it. With the state collecting that data, your phone company collecting that data, your cell phone OS collecting that data, random apps collecting that data, and who knows who is on the other end of that call and what they're doing with your data. Will you be t…

Practically speaking, none of these things will happen. This is actually one of the big hurdles to getting some people into therapy/treatment/medication that they need: They imagine a lot of catastrophic scenarios about what could possibly happen if they get the help they need, which creates a gridlock that traps them in their situation. From a pure risk management perspective, the highest risk by far in these scenar…

You are 100% wrong. The current infrastructure only exists to reduce liability (hr ect) and nothing more. It could be subsidized to prevent poor outcomes but I'm honestly afraid of the lobbying against it.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#237

Post by stinkass »

nicoburns wrote: post #233
yellowapple wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> healthcare reform, gun control, education reform and labor reform One of these things is not like the others. There's no need for gun control once a society has implemented the other three; violence and suidice (with or without access to firearms) is a direct function of socioeconomic inequality - and I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic ineq…

> I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic inequality at all, let alone before actually addressing that socioeconomic inequality. Does that imply you'd support an armed insurrection? That seems pretty extreme! And if not, then why exactly do these people need guns?

I would, if the right people were getting shot at. If it were realistic to hold them to account without killing them, guns might actually be unnecessary...unless you're hiking in griz country.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#238

Post by bombcar »

reaperducer wrote: post #207
morelisp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last ambulance trip in the US was billed at $12000. With my (good!) insurance I still had to pay $500.

I find this hard to believe. I work in healthcare, and occasionally see billing numbers as part of my job. Even when we send an air ambulance helicopter to a remote part of the desert, it doesn't cost $12,000. Related to the rest of this thread, a family member was hurt at work about six months ago and needed a 12-mile ambulance ride. The ambulance company billed the company's insurance $1,400. The company's insuranc…

Someone is subsidizing something on an air ambulance if it doesn't hit $12k. Those things are $1k/hr just as a baseline, and that's before you even try to pay for a pilot or anyone else.

However, they're usually managed by air/rescue and therefor part of the fire department or equivalent.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#239

Post by bombcar »

nicoburns wrote: post #235
staticman2 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act, especially when you consider what it does to their family members, so I believe being a police officer requires you to commit reprehensible acts. Your mileage may vary.

> I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act Are you actually required to do that as a police officer? Would it not be up to the discretion of the officer as to whether it was in the public interest to make an arrest or not? Here in the UK it would be pretty unusual for someone to be arrested for getting high unless they were causing a public nuisance, property damage, or similar.

This is the case, and if it were as common as described, there would be many many examples available. The cops are likely not even to roll out for "someone getting high" unless they're really bored or something else is happening.

Re: U.S. transition to 988 suicide and crisis lifeline begins Saturday

#240

Post by yellowapple »

nicoburns wrote: post #233
yellowapple wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> healthcare reform, gun control, education reform and labor reform One of these things is not like the others. There's no need for gun control once a society has implemented the other three; violence and suidice (with or without access to firearms) is a direct function of socioeconomic inequality - and I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic ineq…

> I'm uncomfortable (to say the least) with disarming the very working class most impacted by said socioeconomic inequality at all, let alone before actually addressing that socioeconomic inequality. Does that imply you'd support an armed insurrection? That seems pretty extreme! And if not, then why exactly do these people need guns?

> Does that imply you'd support an armed insurrection? That seems pretty extreme!

It implies that I support the right to self defense - including against an oppressive regime and the enforcers thereof. Specifically, it implies that I support the exercise of that right among the class of people typically excluded from it. Violence is the last resort, but it is a resort nonetheless.

"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary" -- Karl Marx

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -- George Orwell

"A man's rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box." -- Frederick Douglass

> And if not, then why exactly do these people need guns?

Because even when a government is not actively oppressing its people, it is demonstrably (with considerable regularity) incapable of protecting each and every one of its citizens from one another. Like the saying goes: when seconds count, the police are an hour away. Every person has the right to ensure one's own safety and security, even if their government can't or won't ensure it for them.

And that's entirely ignoring things like non-combative use of firearms, like hunting or pest control or defense against predators or marksmanship or what have you. Quite frankly: the purpose for one's ownership of a firearm is the business of none but oneself.

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